INS Kalvari will receive its indigenous AIP system next year

[Joe Shearer]

Nope. historians and analysts agree on the fact that PNS Ghazi took down a INS and tried taking down another one.

Then it exploded during a mine laying expedition later on. Your own IN destroyed all evidence they had from their own research into the topic of INS Ghazi years ago.

Says a lot don't you think?

Anyways, stick to the topic, that is the use of old and not so important phosphoric acid fuel cells (PAFCs).

Refer back to post#6 if you need a proper review of what I said earlier: https://defencepk.com/forums/thread...digenous-aip-system-next-year.4207/post-95329

Without doing a basic google/chatgpt search I can tell you that no one else in the world uses PAFC's for their AIP's.

One of the world's quietest subs (Finnish ones) runs on Sterling AIP's. The same Sterling you said above is "noisy".

This is not generally accepted. INS Khukri was sunk by PNS Hangor, not by PNS Ghazi.

Creating facts like this leads to the kind of name-calling that we have seen already.

Please stop it.

 

[vikNerv]

It takes effort to use ChatGPT, something no one else on the thread could do.

And then it takes more effort to interpret the results, which neither you or the other guy can do even after the "copy paste" it seems.

So my point still stands....do some actual research, ChatGPT or Google, before jumping in with your opinions.

I have stated my opinions and backed them up with links, sources and facts, from ChatGPT or Google.

You use the word "ChatGPT" as if it's a slur, not knowing that ChatGPT scores high in all forms of Standardized Exams and Tests, even College/Uni level.

And this is just the start. Soon it'll be ubiquitous.

Oh lol please, i use chat gpt all the time for my work. I agree nothing wrong in using chat gpt. But it does not take any effort to enter a query into chat gpt and copy paste it. And no, chat gpt is not the got to for everything nor is it a slur. Its a starting point. Not the go to for an argument

 

[War Lord]

This is not true of the DRDO’s AIP system, which relies on the innovative Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cell (PAFC) technology. This process is more rugged, tolerant of fuel impurities, offers longer life and efficiency, and is much safer, since it does not require hazardous Hydrogen to be stored on board.
While based on a proven fuel cell technology type i.e PAFC, NMRL’s AIP system, nonetheless, incorporates a set of innovations that make it a rather contemporary system. For one, NMRL’s AIP package has an onboard hydrogen generation plant, which produces hydrogen ‘in situ’ unlike many other AIP configurations where hydrogen for a mission has to be carried on board.

Moreover, on board hydrogen production in NMRL’s/DRDO's AIP does not require any kind of combustion. NMRL’s AIP supplies hydrogen ‘in situ’ by reacting hydrogen ‘rich’ sodium borohydride, which is carried on board, with water, to generate hydrogen and sodium metaborate. The advantages of this kind of ‘borohydride hydrolysis’ (BH) to generate hydrogen vis a vis other forms of on-board hydrogen generation. NMRL’s/DRDO's BH process generates a considerable amount of hydrogen without entailing the release of any gaseous effluents which add to system noise and can compromise submarine stealth. Moreover, BH plants also have long operational lives.

What NMRL/DRDO has done is further develop basic PAFC -related know how to come up with indigenous PAFC stacks that are ruggedized and compact enough to be suitable for underwater marine applications with the relevant safety margins. NMRL has registered a number of innovation patents on its way to the development of indigenous PAFC stacks related to the catalysts used, sealants, acid holder matrix, carbon paper, etc.

Source?

There is a reason why GPT 3.5 is never a good primary source of information. Do you know why? Actually Ask GPT 3.5 itself. Here GPT 3.5 is wrong. Very wrong.

Also see this, Can you tell why mine is saying PAFC produces less noise? Also notice the color of the GPT bubble, why is it different?

Chat GPT can be told to change it answers, not all the time of course. Color of the bubble doesn't really matter, might be based on country you use it from, idk.

Going back to the topic:

Microsoft Copilot, which uses GPT 4, said that Stirling engines are quieter.

 

[War Lord]

This is not generally accepted. INS Khukri was sunk by PNS Hangor, not by PNS Ghazi.

Creating facts like this leads to the kind of name-calling that we have seen already.

Please stop it.

My bad, I confused PNS Ghazi with PNS Hangor.

Other than that, all my other facts have been on point.

Oh lol please, i use chat gpt all the time for my work. I agree nothing wrong in using chat gpt. But it does not take any effort to enter a query into chat gpt and copy paste it. And no, chat gpt is not the got to for everything nor is it a slur. Its a starting point. Not the go to for an argument

Well then you're the 2nd person after myself to acknowledge use of GPT.

Not everyone can "prompt engineer" or interpret the result correctly, like I stated above. It can be used for discussions or arguments, like I have already shown above also.

 

[Pingle]

Very good information on submarines by Dhruv Rathi.... interesting video.....

 

[kmc_chacko]

Very good information on submarines by Dhruv Rathi.... interesting video.....

So, he is submarine expert also

 

[Pingle]

So, he is submarine expert also

Not expert exactly but he can talk on any subject and it's always convincing..... from rockets to planes to tsunamis to nuclear reactors to any big historical tragedy happened to even ghosts.....

 

[DDG-80]

 

[Archie]

Looks old

Dauym the first one's are from 1999

And it's already been detected by the PN P3C Orion ASW aircraft, in the Pakistani EEZ 86 miles from Gwadar.

Source: https://www.dawn.com/news/1467885

Hopefully the AIP makes it "undetectable" next time.

How can the first one be from 1999, when the construction itself began in 2009 and The first boat INS KALVARI entered service in 2016

Also the Grainy photo shared by Dawn is no proof that it was a scorpene Class sub.
It could very well be a Kilo class or U209 class
Or even Agosta 90B class

India only had 2 scorpenes in service back in 2019

Given the out Dated tech of P3 Orion, they could very well mistake PN or Chinese Sub as Indian.

You need to share a neutral source for such information

 

[Archie]

View attachment 37646

It was expected

Scorpene class will serve well into 2050s , with the last 3 boats entering service between 2030-32 .

Each Of the first 6 scorpenes will receive AIP plugin during their first MLU.

They are also set to receive a new Anti ship Cruise Missile to replace the 140km range Exocet .
French have offered the 550km range Scalp Cruise Missile,
Though India wants the domestic alternative ie Brahmos NG .

France have even offered the Lithium ion battery tech for the last 3 scorpenes, however we don't know whether they will be incorporated in the MLU of the first 6 boats

 

[Falcon26]

That just means that DRDO hasn't found a way to store Hydrogen abroad. No worries though it'll take them time, if they ever venture that way.

Also:

While AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) systems can utilize various technologies, including Stirling engines and fuel cells, they typically don't use phosphoric acid fuel cells (PAFCs). Instead, proton exchange membrane fuel cells (PEMFCs) or solid oxide fuel cells (SOFCs) are more commonly used in AIP systems due to their higher power density, efficiency, and compactness, which are crucial for submarine applications. PAFCs are more commonly found in stationary power generation and some niche applications due to their lower power density and operating temperature.

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Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) systems are designed to allow submarines to operate without the need to surface or snorkel for extended periods. Several technologies can be employed for AIP:

1. Stirling Engines: These are external combustion engines that use a closed-cycle regenerative process. They are highly efficient and can run on various fuels such as diesel, gasoline, or hydrogen. Stirling engines are widely used in AIP systems due to their reliability and low noise signature.
2. Fuel Cells: Fuel cell technology, such as proton exchange membrane fuel cells (PEMFCs) or solid oxide fuel cells (SOFCs), can be used in AIP systems. These cells produce electricity through the electrochemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen, typically sourced from stored hydrogen and ambient air, respectively.
3. Closed-Cycle Diesel Engines: These engines operate similarly to traditional diesel engines but use a sealed system that circulates exhaust gases within the engine, preventing the release of emissions into the atmosphere. Closed-cycle diesel engines can utilize liquid oxygen or stored oxygen as the oxidizer, allowing the submarine to remain submerged for extended periods.
4. Bioethanol or Biofuel Cells: Some research explores the use of bioethanol or biofuel cells in AIP systems. These cells generate electricity through the electrochemical oxidation of bioethanol or other biofuels, offering a potentially renewable and environmentally friendly power source.

Each of these technologies has its advantages and challenges, including factors such as efficiency, power density, noise levels, and compatibility with submarine design and operational requirements. Submarine designers often select the AIP technology based on a combination of these factors to optimize the performance and capabilities of the submarine for its intended missions.

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Determining the "best" AIP technology depends on various factors, including the specific requirements of the submarine, such as mission profile, operational environment, cost considerations, and technological maturity. Each of the four ways has its advantages and limitations:

1. Stirling Engines: Stirling engines are highly efficient and have a low acoustic signature, making them well-suited for quiet operations. They have been extensively used in AIP systems and are known for their reliability. However, they can be relatively complex and costly to manufacture.
2. Fuel Cells: Fuel cells, particularly proton exchange membrane fuel cells (PEMFCs), offer high efficiency and low noise levels, making them suitable for quiet operations. They produce electricity through an electrochemical reaction and can be powered by various fuels, including hydrogen. However, fuel cell technology can be expensive, and the infrastructure for hydrogen storage and distribution may not be readily available in some areas.
3. Closed-Cycle Diesel Engines: Closed-cycle diesel engines can provide extended underwater endurance and are relatively simple in design. They offer good efficiency and can be quieter compared to traditional diesel engines, especially when combined with effective noise reduction measures. However, they may require the onboard storage of liquid oxygen or other oxidizers, which can add complexity and safety considerations.
4. Bioethanol or Biofuel Cells: Biofuel cells offer the potential for renewable and environmentally friendly power generation. However, their development is still in the early stages, and they may face challenges related to efficiency, power density, and scalability compared to other AIP technologies.

In terms of cost-effectiveness and quietness, Stirling engines and fuel cells (such as PEMFCs) are generally considered favorable options. Stirling engines have a proven track record in submarine applications and offer high efficiency and low noise levels. Fuel cells, while potentially more expensive upfront, can provide quiet and efficient operation, especially when powered by hydrogen. The choice between these options would depend on the specific requirements and budget constraints of the submarine program.

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Majority of this post was created with the help of ChatGPT 3.5

But I stand corrected, this AIP and the sub itself are an older, weaker design...

The more you read about the PN Agosta 90-B “transfer of technology” deal, the more you realize what a majestic scam it really was. Pakistan spent 100s of millions extra charges in acquiring the technology of the Agosta 90-B, which turned out to be sham.

Imagine if Pakistan, instead of this comprehensive “TOT” that amounts to nothing, focused on niche components of the submarine like the e MESMA AIP & became self-reliant on this sensitive technology.

Few decades after their induction, Pakistan had to send the Agostas to Turkey for upgrade since it didn’t have the necessary technical knowledge to do so inhouse.

@Quwa @arslank01 @JamD

 

[Falcon26]

Even I wasn't initially aware that scorpeans were coming without AIP...... it was actually surprising that Pakistan Agosta submarines were AIP equipped naturally India would go for AIP.....

Pakistan was the first navy in the region to operate AIP submarines when it acquired the agosta 90-B in the 1990s.

 

[Quwa]

The more you read about the PN Agosta 90-B “transfer of technology” deal, the more you realize what a majestic scam it really was. Pakistan spent 100s of millions extra charges in acquiring the technology of the Agosta 90-B, which turned out to be sham.

Imagine if Pakistan, instead of this comprehensive “TOT” that amounts to nothing, focused on niche components of the submarine like the e MESMA AIP & became self-reliant on this sensitive technology.

Few decades after their induction, Pakistan had to send the Agostas to Turkey for upgrade since it didn’t have the necessary technical knowledge to do so inhouse.

@Quwa @arslank01 @JamD

Indeed, but let's continue this discussion here: https://defencepk.com/forums/thread...ews-implications-discussions.292/#post-135209

 

[arslank01]

to whoever was asking about the towed array-
" It also features a Pakistani combat management system, a towed array sonar and weaponry"

which makes sense, theyre using the same TAS as the Agosta, but interestingly, they didnt choose the Pakistani CMS for it

 

[Pingle]

Pakistan was the first navy in the region to operate AIP submarines when it acquired the agosta 90-B in the 1990s.

Yes I'm aware of this bro.... you have always introduced some critical technologies above everyone in this region which I appreciate always...