VCheng
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
And then what is likely going to be the outcome?
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Israel’s Genocide in Gaza | 2023- till present
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And then what is likely going to be the outcome?
Khansaheeb
Elite Member
Rebuilding of Palestine?
Khansaheeb
Elite Member
Khansaheeb
Elite Member
VCheng
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
The rebuilding can happen only after there is cessation of hostilities, wouldn't you agree?
Aziqbal
Elite Member
how dumb are Americans ?
these parasites are the worst and the Americans are the dumbest hosts
Americans are literally making enemies for their future generations for who the Israelis ?
VCheng
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Let us assume that you are correct here. So do you really expect such a dumb people to see the error of their ways on their own? Or would it be more produuctive to adopt a strategy that would help such a dumb country improve and change who it chooses to support?
Only after that question is answered can one think about what could be done to help the Palestinians. Obviously expecting a dumb people to see they are doing wrong all by themselves is perhaps an even dumber mistake to make.
Aziqbal
Elite Member
through all of that I see somewhere some sense so I won't judge you straight away
I know what you are saying because I used to think like that and you take a sensible pragmatic approach and see things for what they are and actually want to address the issue fair enough
but in my original post of the dumb Americans I forgot to that that they the leadership of the US are descendants of Satanic worshipers the Evangelicals Christians
same people who killed 65 millm native Americans , same people who killed and enslaved 4 million blacks and over 1 million Iraqis
there is no good in the blue eyed white man who worships Satan
I know you won't agree with me but that's what I believe about American leadership
there is not even 1 atoms worth of humanity in these devils let alone sense
they are dumb devils and in time they will weaken and then suffer , all Empire do
VCheng
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Let me reciprocate your courtesy and attempt to proceed with a rational discussion
However you choose to judge me is your prerogative, and one that I cannot interfere with. All I ask is that judge me as you wish, but at least consider the arguments I make with some honest deliberation. Fair enough?
I will not contest that, but please allow me to point out that all the early Muslims were descendants of the pagan tribes of Arabia, with all their faults, and everyone of the later Muslims were once some other faith too. The point is that such a history does not perpetually render a people unable to change and improve.
Back to your point, if the US leadership is indeed as you describe it, and unable to improve from thier historical roots, would you be willing to apply the same standards to the leadership of the Muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran?
Okay, but again, please apply the same standards to all the other previous empires throughout human history, including those led by Muslims? How far back into history do you wish to go? Human nature is what it is, has been, and will be, regardless of which subset in ascendant at a particular time in history.
As a personal view, it is your right to hold such views. For purposes of this discussion, I will not contest it, without agreeing with it, so that I can ask you to then formulate a strategy that would deal with such a foe.
After all, it must be possible. I will point out how the prophet PBUH himself was criticized for the Hudaibiyah Accord, but he did show us all a path to be able to sit down and work out issues with the worst of enemies too, short of war.
As I said above, for purposes of this discussion, I will not contest such views about US leadership, without agreeing with it, so that I can present my argument:
Given the present state of economic, scientific, military and political development of each of the Muslim countries in the world today (assessed honestly), how would you say actual progress can be made in a manner that will help stop the suffering of the Palestinians, and put them on a path of being able to live in dignity and at peace with all of their neighbors?
It is quite clear that what has been happening thus far is simply not working, despite all the claims made so stridently in this thread particularly, and on social media generally.
Doing more of the same is a practical guarantee of the same results too, in my view.
However you choose to judge me is your prerogative, and one that I cannot interfere with. All I ask is that judge me as you wish, but at least consider the arguments I make with some honest deliberation. Fair enough?
I will not contest that, but please allow me to point out that all the early Muslims were descendants of the pagan tribes of Arabia, with all their faults, and everyone of the later Muslims were once some other faith too. The point is that such a history does not perpetually render a people unable to change and improve.
Back to your point, if the US leadership is indeed as you describe it, and unable to improve from thier historical roots, would you be willing to apply the same standards to the leadership of the Muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran?
Okay, but again, please apply the same standards to all the other previous empires throughout human history, including those led by Muslims? How far back into history do you wish to go? Human nature is what it is, has been, and will be, regardless of which subset in ascendant at a particular time in history.
As a personal view, it is your right to hold such views. For purposes of this discussion, I will not contest it, without agreeing with it, so that I can ask you to then formulate a strategy that would deal with such a foe.
After all, it must be possible. I will point out how the prophet PBUH himself was criticized for the Hudaibiyah Accord, but he did show us all a path to be able to sit down and work out issues with the worst of enemies too, short of war.
As I said above, for purposes of this discussion, I will not contest such views about US leadership, without agreeing with it, so that I can present my argument:
Given the present state of economic, scientific, military and political development of each of the Muslim countries in the world today (assessed honestly), how would you say actual progress can be made in a manner that will help stop the suffering of the Palestinians, and put them on a path of being able to live in dignity and at peace with all of their neighbors?
It is quite clear that what has been happening thus far is simply not working, despite all the claims made so stridently in this thread particularly, and on social media generally.
Doing more of the same is a practical guarantee of the same results too, in my view.
Aziqbal
Elite Member
the big difference between the West Empires and the Eastern ones is two fold
Western Empires put themselves on this higher moral and ethical pedestal and proclaim a self appointed higher moral authority
secondly when they are stronger they seem to think their actions carry no consequences and that they are not subject any sort of accountability
with great power does comes responsibility and accountability and in todays age where we should have international laws and treaties and processes and procures in place a world where we have the rule of law and global world order based on peace and security its all been thrown out of the window for what ?
the endless and senseless killing of women and children ? we know why they do it
they do it so Palestinians dont fight and to give them a message not to do it again this kind of colonial thinking still exists today I thought we had moved forward , my entire view has changed over this whole Gaza thing
Western nations dont care because they are Brown, Arab and Muslims living in the West I thought all that had been put behind us
my forefathers came to the UK in 1954, and after living here for 3-4 generations and like many who's forefathers worked 16 hours a day in factories of Yorkshire with blood, sweat and tears building this fucking nation they would simply beat us up on the streets like dogs during a peaceful protest just so Israel can keep killing women and children
sorry but there is no change coming from these people and no reasoning either
if 100 rattle snakes attack me and out of those 20 mean good and 20 promise won't bite me what is the sensible thing to do? hope those 20 will defend me , no better of just shutting the door
solution is new world order, a bipolar world , multiple superpowers and not relying on a sole Superpower to make up all the laws
alliances and collaborations building bridges with nations that we didn't think was possible and isolating the US
925boy
Elite Member
hmm....lets be honest, even if asked by Palestine to intervene, these Muslim armies wouldn't do crap to help, because if they had to be asked to help people being genocided to help, that probably means they never planned to help.
VCheng
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Please allow me to respond:
Let me just concede the higher moral ground to your way of thinking without any argument for purposes of this discussion. Yes, the West is decadent, immoral, and unethical compared to the decent moral and ethics of the East.
It is quite clear to me that no one has ever, throughout human history, escaped the consequnces of their actions, and that accountability always finds its marks, no matter who and when. Having said that, you seem to be saying that "they seem to think" otherwise.
Again, for purposes of this discussion, I will concede that, since it does not really matter what anyone thinks. Consequences and accountability is a given for everyone.
Again, you can hold those views of course, since I am not asking for you to reason with your opponents, but to negotiate with them.
Please keep in mind that to reason with someone means "to try to persuade someone to act in a wise way or to change their behavior or a decision, by explaining why it is a good idea" whereas to negotiate means "to confer with another or others in order to come to terms or reach an agreement".
Why negotiate with such evil, heartless and criminal people? Well, to stop and reduce the carnage and suffering for one, since it is the great disparity between the two sides in the conflict that makes it very lop-sided. And the longer it continues, the worse it gets.
Fair enough. How long do you think that would take? And assuming that China is one of the newer poles in this new world order, have you seen any evidence at all from the Chinese that amounts to anything more than what many others have been saying but not doing already?
Or are you willing to accept merely the hope that a new world order would somehow be able to change in the slightest the basic rules of international geopolitics that have governed throught all of human history?
Good. But again, how long would it take, especially keeping in mind the history of such "bridge building" by the Muslims?
In the meantime, such long term hopes and dreams are great to hold, but do nothing to change matters on the ground in the immediate present and foreseeable future.
Of course, as I have already mentioned, doing more of the same is likely to result in more of the same results. If that is regarded as a rational course of action, you of course are perfectly entitled to carry on, keeping in mind that your opponents are likely to do the same too.
Let me just concede the higher moral ground to your way of thinking without any argument for purposes of this discussion. Yes, the West is decadent, immoral, and unethical compared to the decent moral and ethics of the East.
It is quite clear to me that no one has ever, throughout human history, escaped the consequnces of their actions, and that accountability always finds its marks, no matter who and when. Having said that, you seem to be saying that "they seem to think" otherwise.
Again, for purposes of this discussion, I will concede that, since it does not really matter what anyone thinks. Consequences and accountability is a given for everyone.
Again, you can hold those views of course, since I am not asking for you to reason with your opponents, but to negotiate with them.
Please keep in mind that to reason with someone means "to try to persuade someone to act in a wise way or to change their behavior or a decision, by explaining why it is a good idea" whereas to negotiate means "to confer with another or others in order to come to terms or reach an agreement".
Why negotiate with such evil, heartless and criminal people? Well, to stop and reduce the carnage and suffering for one, since it is the great disparity between the two sides in the conflict that makes it very lop-sided. And the longer it continues, the worse it gets.
Fair enough. How long do you think that would take? And assuming that China is one of the newer poles in this new world order, have you seen any evidence at all from the Chinese that amounts to anything more than what many others have been saying but not doing already?
Or are you willing to accept merely the hope that a new world order would somehow be able to change in the slightest the basic rules of international geopolitics that have governed throught all of human history?
Good. But again, how long would it take, especially keeping in mind the history of such "bridge building" by the Muslims?
In the meantime, such long term hopes and dreams are great to hold, but do nothing to change matters on the ground in the immediate present and foreseeable future.
Of course, as I have already mentioned, doing more of the same is likely to result in more of the same results. If that is regarded as a rational course of action, you of course are perfectly entitled to carry on, keeping in mind that your opponents are likely to do the same too.
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