JF-17 PFX program

[PakShaheen_79]

I think with J-35A and more J-10Cs on the way, the final goal is not to develop a specific fighter jet but to develop an industrial ecosystem through which PAF can enhance its share of contributions in future projects and 100% indigenization may not the goal here but to expand current capabilities where PAF can design and validate its own airframe design and then invite partners like CAC, SAC, TAI etc. to join the project. PAC is in no shape to take on any 4.5 gen project on its own. Azm must be to get basic capabilities and then to build upon them from there and NATSP integrating all efforts in sub-system research and development with greater local input. PFX is not envisioned, IMHO, to fill in numbers, but to fill in capabilities those are currently missing. So it may take longer than expected or may fizzle out completely if PAF can't sustain its budget.

 

[amuqeetk]

You didn't understand. In my post, I was actually agreeing with what you said. Like you said, the JF-17 has reached it's peak. In order to enhance it further, it will have to be modified heavily. I never said that PAF should redevelop it to J-10c level.
Secondly, my question still stands, is it worth investing in a design that has already reached it's peak? It would only make sense to fully localize the JF-17 airframe IF we have plans on producing more but so far we have not seen anything of the sort.

I kind of agree. I believe that Pakistan should start developing local subsystems for these aircraft without modifying the airframe and iterate upon them. In the future whether it’s the J-35 or another aircraft ,we should buy the jets and integrate our own local subsystems and munitions. Meanwhile, we should focus on mass producing UCAVs and develop derivative technologies from the subsystems created for jets to be used in those UCAVs. Over the next 30 to 40 years, this approach will allow us to reach a point where we can start manufacturing our own jets with minimal help from the Chinese or the Turks.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Each and every time Pakistan wants to do a project like JF17 "on its own", it cannot do it because it does not have the required infrastructure in place and people, so the barrier to that project seems insurmountable and tends to go nowhere.

Pakistan will now bring in a turnkey airframe manufacturing infrastructure into Pakistan via the J17C-P and turn out some JF17C-P's for that programme. This is the same approach that Türkiye took, where it manufactured the F16 in Turkey and then reused that same infrastructure and people to attempt the Kaan project. So, this is not about further developing the JF17C, it is about "finally" building a core infrastructure base in Pakistan that Pakistan can use on other projects. Pakistan will "simply pay the cost now to get over that recurring barrier regardless". It has historically avoided paying that cost on the basis of cost-efficiency of the project.

I think JF17C-P is achievable and Pakistan will move in that direction. I have serious doubts about JF17-PX programme, but we should treat what we refer to the JF17CP programme separately from the JF17-PX programme.

JF17C-P maybe a stepping stone to JF17C-PX, but i suspect that Pakistan will only get as far as JF17C-P if the intention is to make the JF17C-PX larger for new capabilities, which Pakistan does not possess the skillset to do(imho).

 

[Michael]

You didn't understand. In my post, I was actually agreeing with what you said. Like you said, the JF-17 has reached it's peak. In order to enhance it further, it will have to be modified heavily. I never said that PAF should redevelop it to J-10c level.

Well, there may be some differences in understanding between us.

Secondly, my question still stands, is it worth investing in a design that has already reached it's peak? It would only make sense to fully localize the JF-17 airframe IF we have plans on producing more but so far we have not seen anything of the sort.

I think the JF-17B3 has really reached the peak of the JF-17. It could still use some minor upgrades, but not too many. For example, using the WS-21 engine, more electrical power would allow the existing avionics to work better.

Based on current PAF requirements and the adversaries Pakistan faces, the JF-17B3 will be in production and service for at least a long time yet.
But it is already a liability for CAC (lots of idle dedicated production systems).

So, it is entirely necessary for PAC to work towards a fully indigenous production airframe for the JF-17B3.
At the same time, by achieving 100% indigenous production of the airframe, PAC can acquire more industrial capabilities and technical talents. This will provide strong support for PAC in the future.

I kind of agree. I believe that Pakistan should start developing local subsystems for these aircraft without modifying the airframe and iterate upon them. In the future whether it’s the J-35 or another aircraft ,we should buy the jets and integrate our own local subsystems and munitions. Meanwhile, we should focus on mass producing UCAVs and develop derivative technologies from the subsystems created for jets to be used in those UCAVs. Over the next 30 to 40 years, this approach will allow us to reach a point where we can start manufacturing our own jets with minimal help from the Chinese or the Turks.

The development and production work on subsystems for modern fighters, especially from 4.5th-Gen onwards, is very demanding. Pakistan does not have the relevant capabilities at all.

For example: the two most central subsystems, the radar and the engine.

You can carefully check how many countries in the world are currently able to manufacture GaN AESA and military turbofan engines completely independently. Those countries that rely on imported core components to assemble them are not included in this scope.

 

[Corax]

Having a new Radar, IRST and Missile integration , EW does makes it a Legitimate candidate to be called Block IV (PFX)

The JF17-Block III just had a new Radar introduced , would be interesting what will emerge which is more potent then the Radar on Block III which is literally Top of Line stuff

Being 100% Pakistan Variant , will be quite an exciting project

Just to clarify, the Block III upgrades were more than just the radar. It included a new fully digital quadruplex FBW system, fibre optic cabling, and upgraded ECM suite including replacing the two UV based MAWS with four IR based MAWS.

In my view, the OCU/PFX is an MLU/SLEP type upgrade of the blocks IIs to Block III+ standard, with further improvements in ECM and avionics to the Block III standard. I'm assuming the Block IIIs will also receive this upgrade. It's possible it may include another production batch (Block IV). The older Block Is may be upgraded to keep them in a secondary ADF configuration only.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Just to clarify, the Block III upgrades were more than just the radar. It included a new fully digital quadruplex FBW system, fibre optic cabling, and upgraded ECM suite including replacing the two UV based MAWS with four IR based MAWS.

In my view, the OCU/PFX is an MLU/SLEP type upgrade of the blocks IIs to Block III+ standard, with further improvements in ECM and avionics to the Block III standard. I'm assuming the Block IIIs will also receive this upgrade. It's possible it may include another production batch (Block IV). The older Block Is may be upgraded to keep them in a secondary ADF configuration only.

Upgrading the JF17 Block II's to be able to launch the PL15s if possible, should be the need of the hour. While the platform itself may not have the detection range, what we have learnt is that the PL15 can take targeting information from other sensors like Radars, and AEW&Cs, so it would be a significant capability up tick to add another 120 platforms that PL15 capable. Ideally PL15, but even the PL15E would be a good capability uplift and would widen the threat that the IAF faces at a low relative cost.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Sorry. I should've written 100% indigenous STRUCTURE, which is what I meant.

Does that include the FCS? And when you said electronics package, did you include AESA? I thought we'd already built an indigenous one for the JF-17? Was the local AESA inadequate?

 

[Toxic]

Does that include the FCS? And when you said electronics package, did you include AESA? I thought we'd already built an indigenous one for the JF-17? Was the local AESA inadequate?

The current aesa on the JF-17 is Chinese that is assembled in Pakistan under licence, we still quite a ways out of being able make one completely domestically although I do believe there has one in development for a few years now but the scale of the project is unknown.

 

[amuqeetk]

The development and production work on subsystems for modern fighters, especially from 4.5th-Gen onwards, is very demanding. Pakistan does not have the relevant capabilities at all.

For example: the two most central subsystems, the radar and the engine.

You can carefully check how many countries in the world are currently able to manufacture GaN AESA and military turbofan engines completely independently. Those countries that rely on imported core components to assemble them are not included in this scope.

Then, we make what we can and create the capability to make what we can't. I am not saying we create big-ticket items like engines and all, but we can and must build as many components as we can. Eventually, we will get somewhere. Our systems may not be the best or even obsolete by the time they are introduced, but they would be ours, and we can iterate upon them and create a knowledge base and ultimately succeed. We have to start somewhere and i suggest we start from here with minor but rapid iterations.

 

[Michael]

Then, we make what we can and create the capability to make what we can't. I am not saying we create big-ticket items like engines and all, but we can and must build as many components as we can. Eventually, we will get somewhere. Our systems may not be the best or even obsolete by the time they are introduced, but they would be ours, and we can iterate upon them and create a knowledge base and ultimately succeed. We have to start somewhere and i suggest we start from here with minor but rapid iterations.

I am not at all averse to Pakistan having greater industrial capacity. But we have to move forward, step by step, based on reality.

As far as the fighter manufacturing industry is concerned, apart from pure assembly work, probably manufacturing the airframe is the least demanding.
Therefore, I think Pakistan should start with the “simplest” airframe manufacturing. Instead of starting with 100% fully indigenized manufacturing capability.

Your old rival - India. Any weaponry is touted to be indigenously manufactured. However, decades have passed. To date, it is still unable to manufacture a single bullet completely independently.

 

[JamD]

I have no relevant hard evidence, I can only guess.

PAC production of a complete airframe (without subsystems) for the JF-17B3 may have encountered obstacles:

1. heavy equipment. Certain key parts of the aircraft have core structural components which are physically very demanding (mainly in terms of withstand and strain). We generally employ heavy-duty forging machines to manufacture them using a high-pressure forging process. These machines are very expensive and only very few countries have them and they have very high export restrictions on them.

2. Specialty materials. Pakistan is unlikely to have production capacity for these materials. China should be able to export these materials to Pakistan, but there will certainly be some restrictions.

3, composite material processing capacity. For example, carbon fiber composite skins and so on.

I'm not sure about PAC's current capabilities. I guess most of the capabilities they currently lack are on top of the Chinese technology control list.
If Pakistan wishes to import these equipment and technologies from China, it should require very stringent commitments and guarantees. China is not worried about Pakistan having these technologies and equipment. However, China cannot allow certain countries to gain access to Chinese technology secrets through Pakistan.

1. Several machines are at PAC and other machines can be imported by hook or crook.
2. Pakistan imports ALL of the material anyway. There is no local production of aerospace grade aluminum.
3. There are only a few composite parts on the JF-17B3 and Pakistan has enough capacity to make those easily.

Question is, will it be worth it in the long run? As good as the B3 is, we can't deny the fact that the aircraft has reached it's limit in terms of upgrades. To further enhance the JF-17, it's airframe needs to be enlarged and the needs a new and more powerful engine, at the same time it will no longer be in the light weight category. Moreover, seeing how fast technology is improving, PAF will need something with better endurance and survivability, something which the B3 won't have. So let me ask again, is it worth localizing a platform that may no longer be needed by the next decade or so?

I disagree with the assessment that JF17 has reached its limit in terms of upgrades. Even if I agree with that assessment, you still need to eventually replace all block 1 and 2 and Mirages and PGs with Block 3s.

Does that include the FCS? And when you said electronics package, did you include AESA? I thought we'd already built an indigenous one for the JF-17? Was the local AESA inadequate?

No, Pakistan cannot and does not necessarily need to do the FCS on the JF-17. When I said avionics I meant mission computer, radar, ECM/EW packages. I don't know much about the local AESA - but you can probably guess it isn't as good as the Chinese or even Turkish option.

 

[Mohid Afzal]

I disagree with the assessment that JF17 has reached its limit in terms of upgrades. Even if I agree with that assessment, you still need to eventually replace all block 1 and 2 and Mirages and PGs with Block 3s.

I agree with need of replacement part, how long do you think that will take?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

No, Pakistan cannot and does not necessarily need to do the FCS on the JF-17. When I said avionics I meant mission computer, radar, ECM/EW packages. I don't know much about the local AESA - but you can probably guess it isn't as good as the Chinese or even Turkish option.

Pakistan needs to have a comprehensive aerospace grade composite materials production facility. Baykar has such a huge facility. It's needed to produce drones of all sorts en masse....

As for AESA, getting hold of the best quality GaN devices with a good reliability is the key. China and Turkey can help to put some III-V reactors in Pakistan, at the least for R&D purposes. The mass production can be outsourced....

 

[JamD]

I agree with need of replacement part, how long do you think that will take?

Depends entirely on how fast we can produce new JF-17s. The replacements needed to happen yesterday (Mirage F7PG).

 

[LeGenD]

JF-17 Transformed: Pakistan’s PFX Alpha Upgrade Aims to Break Dependence and Build Sovereignty - Defence Security Asia

At the heart of the bustling show floor of the International Defence Exhibition and Seminar 2024 (IDEAS) in Karachi, Pakistan quietly signalled a transformative shift in its airpower doctrine.

defencesecurityasia.com

In the older forum, I mentioned the need to develop AMCA in a thread in a private section. PFX should be larger than JF-17 or AMCA class.