JF-17 PFX program

[Deino]

I am a bit surprised at your temerity to brush off everyone with the confidence of a PAF chief...J 17 airframe is outdated , it will be stupid to invest in it.

Well, it may simply be common sense and the fact that much of what’s currently being reported is simply unrealistic—reflecting more on wishes, dreams, and ambitions than on reality.

Quite simply: Pakistan doesn’t have the capacity—let alone the financial resources—to independently develop such a large fighter jet, or even a twin-engine model. A WS-10 as a single-engine option is unrealistic, and two RD-93s would actually require a new aircraft—which brings us back to my original point.

Even more again: such a fighter - besides gaining experience - is useless. It won’t be more capable than a J-10CE and surely not even close to the J-35.

I’m happy to be proven wrong, but so far I haven’t seen any credible source confirming that the PFX is a twin-engine aircraft or even remotely resembles a JF-17XL (aka Thunder Mk.2).

 

[Pakistan First]

Few months back I posted complete details about PFX project and interview of many defense analysts and all of them confirmed that PFX will be medium weight fighter jet and latest design image or fan art show it with twin engine.

and who are those "analysts". The retired uncles ? or clickbait youtubers ?

Zero worth in their analysis if they say something that makes no sense. The ones who are in youtube views business, looking for views, clickbait thumbnails, talking sensational non-sense in local-media have lost their credibility.

PFX is all about using indigenous components / making more localized version. The most what can happen is that design could slightly change, but overall almost the same airframe and same weight category. You cannot modify an existing aircraft to an extent that you change its weight category.

So if you are saying that PFX is medium weight jet then it means Pakistan is building a new aircraft from the scratch. Now the question is do we really needed to spend tens of billions of dollars to build a new medium weight aircraft with the likes of J-10Cs, Rafales or Eurofighters ? Or should we have just bought more J-10Cs ?? Think for yourself. Its too easy answer.

BTW, PAF official already said few months ago that we need more JF-17s and J-10Cs too when asked about procuring J-35s. So there's no "new" 4.5 aircraft coming. More JF-17s means, more JF-17Cs and PFX (JF-17C++)

 

[Ali_Baba]

There will be a new airframe , present airframe and engine are too constrained for a decent 4.5 generation fighter.

lol. Not now. Not ever. No capability to do so…

 

[PakAl]

Well, it may simply be common sense and the fact that much of what’s currently being reported is simply unrealistic—reflecting more on wishes, dreams, and ambitions than on reality.

Quite simply: Pakistan doesn’t have the capacity—let alone the financial resources—to independently develop such a large fighter jet, or even a twin-engine model. A WS-10 as a single-engine option is unrealistic, and two RD-93s would actually require a new aircraft—which brings us back to my original point.

Even more again: such a fighter - besides gaining experience - is useless. It won’t be more capable than a J-10CE and surely not even close to the J-35.

I’m happy to be proven wrong, but so far I haven’t seen any credible source confirming that the PFX is a twin-engine aircraft or even remotely resembles a JF-17XL (aka Thunder Mk.2).

Your correct in saying Pakistan doesnt have the capacity and resources, but thats what the aim is, it may end up failing like project AZM. The reason for medium weight is paf needs a more powerful plane, bigger radar, range, power etc, i know you said buy more J10CE but the issue is its Chinese jet and we cannot place our own missiles or turkish avionics, missiles, pods on it. So the aim is 4.5th generation medium weight, it is most likely new design, engine will be chinese. So similar to JF17 but a medium plane, with mixture of Pakistan, Chinese and Turkish tech.

 

[Michael]

Your correct in saying Pakistan doesnt have the capacity and resources, but thats what the aim is, it may end up failing like project AZM. The reason for medium weight is paf needs a more powerful plane, bigger radar, range, power etc, i know you said buy more J10CE but the issue is its Chinese jet and we cannot place our own missiles or turkish avionics, missiles, pods on it. So the aim is 4.5th generation medium weight, it is most likely new design, engine will be chinese. So similar to JF17 but a medium plane, with mixture of Pakistan, Chinese and Turkish tech.

Nationalism is highly effective in the realms of politics, diplomacy, and culture, and it can offer significant benefits to a nation’s development. However, you must never apply a nationalist mindset to practical, real-world affairs—such as those concerning the military, industry, or the economy—as doing so could prove disastrous.

China’s “Great Leap Forward” era caused the country’s scientific and technological development to lag behind by decades.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Nationalism is highly effective in the realms of politics, diplomacy, and culture, and it can offer significant benefits to a nation’s development. However, you must never apply a nationalist mindset to practical, real-world affairs—such as those concerning the military, industry, or the economy—as doing so could prove disastrous.

China’s “Great Leap Forward” era caused the country’s scientific and technological development to lag behind by decades.

Then why did China apply a "nationalist mindset" to the military industry? Why did China not carry on buying from Russia ??

 

[RAMPAGE]

Nationalism is highly effective in the realms of politics, diplomacy, and culture, and it can offer significant benefits to a nation’s development. However, you must never apply a nationalist mindset to practical, real-world affairs—such as those concerning the military, industry, or the economy—as doing so could prove disastrous.

China’s “Great Leap Forward” era caused the country’s scientific and technological development to lag behind by decades.

People, am I the only one here who is sick of this guy's platitudes? One of his main themes is: 'China big and powerful; China can do stuff; Pakistan small; Pakistan must not over-reach.'

Dude, the members here are collectively capable of arguing, reasoning and disputing what we are and aren't capable of. You are also welcome to the discussion. But if you are going to develop a thesis, please educate yourself first about Pakistan's current stage of industrialisation, especially vis a vis the military industrial complex, and then refer to and argue about specific technologies relevant to the discussion that we lack or need to develop, cannot develop or ought not develop. Your abstract notions of Pakistan's ineptitude expressed in long, inane essays are ruining the forum experience.

".... you must never apply a nationalist mindset to practical, real-world affairs..."

Mustn't we, really? Piss off, mate.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Then why did China apply a "nationalist mindset" to the military industry? Why did China not carry on buying from Russia ??

This guy is a patronising, sanctimonious prick. I don't know why you people handle him with kid gloves. He's not the Chinese ambassador to PDF.

 

[Michael]

Then why did China apply a "nationalist mindset" to the military industry? Why did China not carry on buying from Russia ??

You have started with a flawed premise.

1. In its early stages—during the "Great Leap Forward"—China was indeed driven by extreme nationalism. This mindset deeply influenced the military-industrial sector, leading to the planning of many projects that appeared impressive on paper but, in reality, almost all ended in failure.

2. China’s "autonomous" industrial base was not an outcome we proactively sought; rather, it was a path forced upon us by pressure and sanctions from the international community. Had it not been for such external pressure, China’s industrial sector today might well be deeply integrated into the global division of labor—much like the industries of Europe, Japan, or South Korea—instead of striving to manufacture everything domestically.

Even today, many in China are tasked with identifying the weaknesses in our industrial sector and developing contingency plans. Currently, we still rely on imports for many things. However, we will not disclose these details.

I support Pakistan’s pursuit of industrial autonomy, but true autonomy can only be achieved by starting from the foundations. This is not something that can be realized through mere rhetoric; you must begin with the most basic, fundamental industrial layers—rather than simply presenting a "dazzling" PowerPoint deck from the very start.

Regarding the JF-17 series of fighter jets, I believe Pakistan should first focus its efforts on achieving the capability to manufacture the airframe entirely—100%—within its own borders. As things stand, you are still a very long way from reaching your goal of developing a medium-weight fighter jet based on the JF-17 platform.

A small example: you could ask whether PAC is capable of achieving 100% domestic production—including both the raw steel and the machining—of landing gear for the JF-17 fighter jet in Pakistan.

 

[Berseker]

I hope the jet isn’t ugly looking!

It’s a dream to see PAF make good looking planes, likes of f-22 and so on.

 

[F.O.X]

You have started with a flawed premise.

1. In its early stages—during the "Great Leap Forward"—China was indeed driven by extreme nationalism. This mindset deeply influenced the military-industrial sector, leading to the planning of many projects that appeared impressive on paper but, in reality, almost all ended in failure.

2. China’s "autonomous" industrial base was not an outcome we proactively sought; rather, it was a path forced upon us by pressure and sanctions from the international community. Had it not been for such external pressure, China’s industrial sector today might well be deeply integrated into the global division of labor—much like the industries of Europe, Japan, or South Korea—instead of striving to manufacture everything domestically.

Even today, many in China are tasked with identifying the weaknesses in our industrial sector and developing contingency plans. Currently, we still rely on imports for many things. However, we will not disclose these details.

I support Pakistan’s pursuit of industrial autonomy, but true autonomy can only be achieved by starting from the foundations. This is not something that can be realized through mere rhetoric; you must begin with the most basic, fundamental industrial layers—rather than simply presenting a "dazzling" PowerPoint deck from the very start.

Regarding the JF-17 series of fighter jets, I believe Pakistan should first focus its efforts on achieving the capability to manufacture the airframe entirely—100%—within its own borders. As things stand, you are still a very long way from reaching your goal of developing a medium-weight fighter jet based on the JF-17 platform.

A small example: you could ask whether PAC is capable of achieving 100% domestic production—including both the raw steel and the machining—of landing gear for the JF-17 fighter jet in Pakistan.

at least remove the long dashes when using AI . I have been watching your posts for a while, and all you do is belittle Pakistan while adding no value to the conversation 99% of your posts are nothing but AI replies. If you cannot contribute anything useful to the thread, then stay silent instead of flooding it with AI slop.

 

[Michael]

at least remove the long dashes when using AI . I have been watching your posts for a while, and all you do is belittle Pakistan while adding no value to the conversation 99% of your posts are nothing but AI replies. If you cannot contribute anything useful to the thread, then stay silent instead of flooding it with AI slop.

You can’t even tell the difference between translation software and AI—your intelligence is truly concerning!

This is a public forum. As long as they don’t violate forum rules, anyone is free to express their views. If you don’t like what I have to say, please just ignore me.

After this post, I will be ignoring you and will not respond to any further feedback from you.

 

[F.O.X]

You can’t even tell the difference between translation software and AI—your intelligence is truly concerning!

This is a public forum. As long as they don’t violate forum rules, anyone is free to express their views. If you don’t like what I have to say, please just ignore me.

After this post, I will be ignoring you and will not respond to any further feedback from you.
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Translation software translates your words, it does not manufacture entire arguments for you. But sure, call it whatever makes you feel better.

And yes, this is a public forum, which means you are free to post nonsense and others are equally free to call it out. No need for a farewell announcement, just press ignore and move on.