JF-17 PFX program

[Oscar]

PFX Alpha is supposed to be something similar to Grippen E. Basically a jet with 10 hard points, more powerful engine which would help put lot of dual racks on those hard points, more powerful AESA radar, better avionics and other stuff, basically by all means a very heavily upgraded BLOCK 4. Than we would initiate a single engine stealth fighter jet program. Turkey will provide technological help and Arabs will finance it.

Those agreements are worth only the dinners they led to - in reality finances are not as forthcoming nor are the arabs as interested in the PFX.

 

[Oscar]

IMO...

The PAF should call it a day and commit to 150 J-35s by 2040.

Forget PFX.

Just set a clear cut long-term requirement as-is, and focus the other resources on the economy and driving foreign currency gains to finance platform purchases.

Except for munitions, IMO, the indigenous production of air platforms is needless. It'd be best to leverage the limited resources to get good at AAM, SAM, SOW, ALCM, etc production. Set up parallel production lines, is indigenize more inputs, and be at a level where you can sustain a war effort.

If you have a strong economy, someone will sell you what you need re: platforms. An Indo-Pak War wouldn't last more than a few weeks, so the idea of having domestic fighter production makes no sense. Best case, you'll make 1 jet in war, and worst case, they'll destroy our assembly plant.

The platforms you get are in peacetime; in wartime, munitions and having as many available launch platforms as possible matters more (read: leverage UCAV).

So, if there needs to be an indigenous air platform, then make it a 2-3-ton UCAV. A comparatively simpler LO design (versus an NGFA) with a goal of having multiple final assembly lines so that we can roll a dozen a week at full capacity.

Those UCAVs are going to play a bigger role as strike assets (especially in high risk engagements) in a war, and being able to replace lost units rapidly would be key.

This is closer to what our industry can reach or realistically aspire to. We can even export them at a potentially good margin too.

It’s too expensive and needs a greater overhaul of the backbone. Link-17 needs to be replaced with something even more robust and capable of supporting higher bandwidth. That in turns means more expensive replacements up and down the communications backbone.

Then comes aircraft facilities - J-35s will require climate controlled systems at the least for maintenance even if zip-strips are used for panel covers.

PAF barely has 3 of these at this point.

In all of this is the need for further unmanned assets and the impending threat of loitering munitions and unmanned wingmen for MKIs -

The budget for all of which simply does not exist.

 

[Deino]

I think you’re referring to a different image and he is to another.
There is an “official” presentation from IDEAS outlining the roadmap for JF-17 and then the old debunked CGIs

BUT here is the kicker - it is also likely (because I have not reviewed it recently) that “official” sources due to their own ineptitude simply chose to use some fan art as representation because they were asked to bring something for show and tell.

You’re assuming competency or at the least honesty where I am repeatedly highlighting a culture of “fake it till you make it” which could even mean a responsible party asking an intern to make the presentation and the intern using CGI and the responsible party presenting it even when their actual work has nothing to do with the image and likely is well behind even concepts of what the CGI represents.

Exactly my point … it‘s all for show and most likely incompetence or ignorance on behalf of the PR-company which just used an old faked image.

Once again: I do not deny the PFX‘s existence … all I deny and in fact strongly refuse is to take this old faked model for face-value and to draw any conclusion from it like „it will be a stealthy single engined 5th generation fighter for sure“!

 

[Deino]

PFX Alpha is supposed to be something similar to Grippen E. Basically a jet with 10 hard points, more powerful engine which would help put lot of dual racks on those hard points, more powerful AESA radar, better avionics and other stuff, basically by all means a very heavily upgraded BLOCK 4. Than we would initiate a single engine stealth fighter jet program. Turkey will provide technological help and Arabs will finance it.

With this - part 1. can can fully agree … part 2. is IMO just naive!

 

[Goku-Kun]

So, if there needs to be an indigenous air platform, then make it a 2-3-ton UCAV. A comparatively simpler LO design (versus an NGFA) with a goal of having multiple final assembly lines so that we can roll a dozen a week at full capacity.

Those UCAVs are going to play a bigger role as strike assets (especially in high risk engagements) in a war, and being able to replace lost units rapidly would be key.

This is closer to what our industry can reach or realistically aspire to. We can even export them at a potentially good margin too.

True and we even have a powerplant to power that 2-3-ton Flying wing UCAV.
Recently HAL uses PTAE-W to power CATS manned unmanned teaming system which reminded me of a similar Engine made by Pakistan as well and that’s GIDS NTJ-V1 Thrust:3.6kN PTAE-W Thrust:3.7kN
NTJ-V1 Weight:<67kg PTAE-W Weight:72kg
NTJ-V1 Power Output: 3KW PTAE-W Power output: 1.12KW

 

[Quwa]

It’s too expensive and needs a greater overhaul of the backbone. Link-17 needs to be replaced with something even more robust and capable of supporting higher bandwidth. That in turns means more expensive replacements up and down the communications backbone.

Then comes aircraft facilities - J-35s will require climate controlled systems at the least for maintenance even if zip-strips are used for panel covers.

PAF barely has 3 of these at this point.

In all of this is the need for further unmanned assets and the impending threat of loitering munitions and unmanned wingmen for MKIs -

The budget for all of which simply does not exist.

I think this all really spells out the point where our industry investment needs to go. If the idea is to leverage a NGFA at an effective scale, then we'd need the money to buy these jets in numbers and to fully support them. The industry should be steered towards supplying the right GSE for the J-35s and, by extension, other NGFAs (as an exportable good).

It's a shame that the priority and money would go into the perception of progress (like possibly assembling an NGFA like the KAAN) rather than focusing on building a next-gen air system in a way where the industry can properly assist.

I genuinely hope NESCOM will pull a rabbit from its hat and give us a loyal wingman and attritable UCAV. That project would be far more of a game changer than PFX slide decks.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Sorry they can't call it a day and yes J-35 number will not be less than 100 I mean final number not first order. In fact could be close to 150.

Lol, how you can be so sure that PAF can order J-35 in 150 in numbers? Where is the $$$ to buy J-35 in such a huge numbers? And don't tell me China will give us 150 J-35 on soft loans lol, we have no imminent from our enemy (India) placing an order of stealth jet any time soon, so its illogical and ridiculous to have such a huge numbers of stealth jet in our arsenal, I expect more order of J-10C and JF-17 BLK-3/4 rather then a 150 J-35, after 2030 PAF arsenal could be 36-72 J-35, 80-100 J-10C and 50- 80 JF-17 BLK-3/4 are the most reasonable and sensible projected arsenal in near future

You're immature and ridiculous kind of guy who don't lives in reality and don't believe in logic and common sense lol

 

[Cesur]

IMO...

The PAF should call it a day and commit to 150 J-35s by 2040.

Forget PFX.

Just set a clear cut long-term requirement as-is, and focus the other resources on the economy and driving foreign currency gains to finance platform purchases.

Except for munitions, IMO, the indigenous production of air platforms is needless. It'd be best to leverage the limited resources to get good at AAM, SAM, SOW, ALCM, etc production. Set up parallel production lines, is indigenize more inputs, and be at a level where you can sustain a war effort.

If you have a strong economy, someone will sell you what you need re: platforms. An Indo-Pak War wouldn't last more than a few weeks, so the idea of having domestic fighter production makes no sense. Best case, you'll make 1 jet in war, and worst case, they'll destroy our assembly plant.

The platforms you get are in peacetime; in wartime, munitions and having as many available launch platforms as possible matters more (read: leverage UCAV).

So, if there needs to be an indigenous air platform, then make it a 2-3-ton UCAV. A comparatively simpler LO design (versus an NGFA) with a goal of having multiple final assembly lines so that we can roll a dozen a week at full capacity.

Those UCAVs are going to play a bigger role as strike assets (especially in high risk engagements) in a war, and being able to replace lost units rapidly would be key.

This is closer to what our industry can reach or realistically aspire to. We can even export them at a potentially good margin too.

Shouldn't we start thinking about making more assembly plants? It's not good to have just one plant in Kamra to make JF-17s, PF-X, Kaan and drones. It puts us at risk.

 

[studsmart]

the more i think i come to reality that PFX could be a stealthy version of blk3 with avionics and engine improvements. not a fully classfied 5th gen but close enough to challenge any 5th gen fighter. a poor man f-35 more like KF-21

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

the more i think i come to reality that PFX could be a stealthy version of blk3 with avionics and engine improvements. not a fully classfied 5th gen but close enough to challenge any 5th gen fighter. a poor man f-35 more like KF-21

Na, I think its more like Grippen-E and F-16 V with more composite materials, sightly reshape fuselage and may be bigger fuselage with more powerful engine like WS-21 or WS-19, I have doubts that PFX would have similar concept of Semi-stealth of KF-21 because if PFX could have similar concept of KF-21 then we have to redesign whole PFX from scratch, so in that sense PFX (if design based on KF-21 design principles) it take lots of TIME and resources to complete PFX in time

 

[hussain0216]

I'm sure PFX will just be the next block of JF17s,

I believe Pakistan just doesn't want to lose all the effort it put into the JF17 programme and it wants to continue the path of increasing the indigenous parts so it can continue to tinker and make parts for the platform for many years to come

It may be best just to buy more J35 or KAANs but then we will never have a platform we have control over

If rumours of participation in the KAAN programme are true then maybe we can implement some design ideas I to the PFX

 

[Goku-Kun]

Na, I think its more like Grippen-E and F-16 V with more composite materials, sightly reshape fuselage and may be bigger fuselage with more powerful engine like WS-21 or WS-19, I have doubts that PFX would have similar concept of Semi-stealth of KF-21 because if PFX could have similar concept of KF-21 then we have to redesign whole PFX from scratch, so in that sense PFX (if design based on KF-21 design principles) it take lots of TIME and resources to complete PFX in time

I agree with you. PFX will be like Gripen-e,F16V and J10C category "MEDIUM WEIGHT FIGHTER".

 

[Ak01]

I'm sure PFX will just be the next block of JF17s,

I believe Pakistan just doesn't want to lose all the effort it put into the JF17 programme and it wants to continue the path of increasing the indigenous parts so it can continue to tinker and make parts for the platform for many years to come

It may be best just to buy more J35 or KAANs but then we will never have a platform we have control over

If rumours of participation in the KAAN programme are true then maybe we can implement some design ideas I to the PFX

Yes, think of PFX literally as Ozgur, but with a +.

When it comes to thinking of it as Ozgur:
The PAF will upgrade all block 2's to 'PFX' standard, then the Block 3 additional/p actually makes alot of sense. The block 3 was always just another stepping stone, lots of compromises were made, lots of key technological gains abandoned. We also only made an initial order of 30. Its clear they would like to introduce some more domestic components on the Block 3, hence the B3P. Likely to be a local radar, maybe some further local avionics, possibly a localised variant of a Chinese EW suite. Then via PFX alpha, further iterations of this.

This is why i call it Ozgur-esque. With alpha they will likely aim to move towards further localised equiptment as the Block 3P will still for all intents and purposes be a Block 3, just with some modifications.

With Alpha i assume they will likely bring the remaining 42% of the production line home and then further localise the components (by necessity) as i take it Chinese support will start to run out for the project.

Thats where the + comes into ozgur plus, we can make new airframes with our 'desi ozgur' and equip them somewhat how we please.

PFX alpha i presume is more akin to MWF than anything. I recall the Chinese talking about how usually with aircraft iterations, they carry over 60-70% of the components, meaning usually they redesign or design from scratch 30% of the new aircraft. IMO everyones too focused on the wrong thing, the key indicator will be seeing what comes of JF-17 OCU/ B3P and not looking so far ahead as to PFX alpha, because even B3P/OCU seems a bit of a far reach with the pathetic state of our industries.

 

[Goku-Kun]

I believe Pakistan just doesn't want to lose all the effort it put into the JF17 programme and it wants to continue the path of increasing the indigenous parts so it can continue to tinker and make parts for the platform for many years to come

True. Indigenize and creation of a MWF(medium weight fighter) which is the requirement of PAF and replace f16s with it

 

[Ak01]

IMO...

The PAF should call it a day and commit to 150 J-35s by 2040.

Forget PFX.

Just set a clear cut long-term requirement as-is, and focus the other resources on the economy and driving foreign currency gains to finance platform purchases.

Except for munitions, IMO, the indigenous production of air platforms is needless. It'd be best to leverage the limited resources to get good at AAM, SAM, SOW, ALCM, etc production. Set up parallel production lines, is indigenize more inputs, and be at a level where you can sustain a war effort.

If you have a strong economy, someone will sell you what you need re: platforms. An Indo-Pak War wouldn't last more than a few weeks, so the idea of having domestic fighter production makes no sense. Best case, you'll make 1 jet in war, and worst case, they'll destroy our assembly plant.

The platforms you get are in peacetime; in wartime, munitions and having as many available launch platforms as possible matters more (read: leverage UCAV).

So, if there needs to be an indigenous air platform, then make it a 2-3-ton UCAV. A comparatively simpler LO design (versus an NGFA) with a goal of having multiple final assembly lines so that we can roll a dozen a week at full capacity.

Those UCAVs are going to play a bigger role as strike assets (especially in high risk engagements) in a war, and being able to replace lost units rapidly would be key.

This is closer to what our industry can reach or realistically aspire to. We can even export them at a potentially good margin too.

Agreed, we have alot of work to do in even basic aircraft design, let alone the stuff we discuss here on the forum.

Sad AZM noises: