JF-17 PFX program

[hussain0216]

Yes, think of PFX literally as Ozgur, but with a +.

When it comes to thinking of it as Ozgur:
The PAF will upgrade all block 2's to 'PFX' standard, then the Block 3 additional/p actually makes alot of sense. The block 3 was always just another stepping stone, lots of compromises were made, lots of key technological gains abandoned. We also only made an initial order of 30. Its clear they would like to introduce some more domestic components on the Block 3, hence the B3P. Likely to be a local radar, maybe some further local avionics, possibly a localised variant of a Chinese EW suite. Then via PFX alpha, further iterations of this.

This is why i call it Ozgur-esque. With alpha they will likely aim to move towards further localised equiptment as the Block 3P will still for all intents and purposes be a Block 3, just with some modifications.

With Alpha i assume they will likely bring the remaining 42% of the production line home and then further localise the components (by necessity) as i take it Chinese support will start to run out for the project.

Thats where the + comes into ozgur plus, we can make new airframes with our 'desi ozgur' and equip them somewhat how we please.

PFX alpha i presume is more akin to MWF than anything. I recall the Chinese talking about how usually with aircraft iterations, they carry over 60-70% of the components, meaning usually they redesign or design from scratch 30% of the new aircraft. IMO everyones too focused on the wrong thing, the key indicator will be seeing what comes of JF-17 OCU/ B3P and not looking so far ahead as to PFX alpha, because even B3P/OCU seems a bit of a far reach with the pathetic state of our industries.
View attachment 94933

The way I look at it, the VAST majority of the worlds countries have no intention to spend ££££ on increasingly expensive 5th and 6th gen aircraft, and it will leave only a handful of countries with any real 5th/6th gen aircraft forces

I reckon their is space for a well priced PFX product,

I also question with our budget how can we start a new aircraft program without help, at best we can jump on a program like KAAN ,learn and maybe get work share and experience for the future

So if we want something of our own PFX is it,
We are pushing towards 200 JF17s I don't know if we can continue to upgrade existing planes or not, but we can make a platform of 200-250 planes based on upgradable JF17s and just get 50-100 or J35 or KAANs or both as a spear tip

 

[Cookie Monster]

I'm sure PFX will just be the next block of JF17s,

I believe Pakistan just doesn't want to lose all the effort it put into the JF17 programme and it wants to continue the path of increasing the indigenous parts so it can continue to tinker and make parts for the platform for many years to come

It may be best just to buy more J35 or KAANs but then we will never have a platform we have control over

If rumours of participation in the KAAN programme are true then maybe we can implement some design ideas I to the PFX

IMO yes PFX(if it materializes in a realistic manner) would be a next block(upgrade) of JF17…along 4.5gen lines.

However what PAF/military planners really need to consider is that…
…how much utility can they get out JF17s frame?
…if let’s say PFX planning, design, production all gets sorted out in the next 5 years(which is rather ambitious)…and it enters service in 2030. It would be expected to serve up to 2050.

By that time…would it be relevant? Or would it become obsolete fast due to its own airframe limitations and also due to the pace with which technology is progressing(with China introducing 6th gen, US with NGAD, and various other European, Japanese, South Korean, Russian…all well more advanced than anything PFX would be). India too would have surely figured out Tejas(MK1/MK2) and probably TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA as well would either already have started production/entered service or would be close to doing so.

Should then Pakistan look towards more J10s? Bcuz surely 4.5 gen jets would still be needed to make up numbers…it would be too costly for PAF to make up large numbers with J35 or KAAN.

Or should Pakistan team up with China to assist in redesigning(enlarging) JF17?
Or perhaps team up with Turkey(with their experience in Hurjet and Pak’s experience with JF17) and have a JV for a medium sized 4.5 gen fighter jet?

Or focus on loyal wingman type of drones…that can make up numbers and work in tandem with J35/KAAN…so that attrition isn’t an issue(due to their cost effectiveness and large numbers)…while still doing in 2050s…what a 4.5 gen jet does today(in terms of role).

It is hard to pick what would be the best option. No doubt things like loyal wingman, loitering, and swarm drones concepts are coming…and will be an important factor in future battles…but we are at a crossroads of that potential future right now…and for something like that…that is yet not battle proven and more a concept than reality…it is hard for an airforce like PAF to take a plunge with certainty…
…I hope PAF planners are geniuses and make the right choice…bcuz the enemy is bigger, with more resources, bigger budget, and a fledgling local industry(soon to expand drastically with private players and help from the west). Any wrong decisions would be punished heavily(even if not directly in a war…then surely in terms of quality/quantity and losing the edge).
@Oscar @Quwa @Deino @Yasser76

 

[hussain0216]

IMO yes PFX(if it materializes in a realistic manner) would be a next block(upgrade) of JF17…along 4.5gen lines.

However what PAF/military planners really need to consider is that…
…how much utility can they get out JF17s frame?
…if let’s say PFX planning, design, production all gets sorted out in the next 5 years(which is rather ambitious)…and it enters service in 2030. It would be expected to serve up to 2050.

By that time…would it be relevant? Or would it become obsolete fast due to its own airframe limitations and also due to the pace with which technology is progressing(with China introducing 6th gen, US with NGAD, and various other European, Japanese, South Korean, Russian…all well more advanced than anything PFX would be). India too would have surely figured out Tejas(MK1/MK2) and probably TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA as well would either already have started production/entered service or would be close to doing so.

Should then Pakistan look towards more J10s? Bcuz surely 4.5 gen jets would still be needed to make up numbers…it would be too costly for PAF to make up large numbers with J35 or KAAN.

Or should Pakistan team up with China to assist in redesigning(enlarging) JF17?
Or perhaps team up with Turkey(with their experience in Hurjet and Pak’s experience with JF17) and have a JV for a medium sized 4.5 gen fighter jet?

Or focus on loyal wingman type of drones…that can make up numbers and work in tandem with J35/KAAN…so that attrition isn’t an issue(due to their cost effectiveness and large numbers)…while still doing in 2050s…what a 4.5 gen jet does today(in terms of role).

It is hard to pick what would be the best option. No doubt things like loyal wingman, loitering, and swarm drones concepts are coming…and will be an important factor in future battles…but we are at a crossroads of that potential future right now…and for something like that…that is yet not battle proven and more a concept than reality…it is hard for any airforce like PAF to take a plunge with certainty…
…I hope PAF planners are geniuses and make the right choice…bcuz the enemy is bigger, with more resources, bigger budget, and a fledgling local industry(soon to expand drastically with private players and help from the west). Any wrong decisions would be punished heavily(even if not directly in a war…then surely in terms of quality/quantity and losing the edge).
@Oscar @Quwa @Deino @Yasser76

@Michael your opinion?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

IMO yes PFX(if it materializes in a realistic manner) would be a next block(upgrade) of JF17…along 4.5gen lines.

However what PAF/military planners really need to consider is that…
…how much utility can they get out JF17s frame?
…if let’s say PFX planning, design, production all gets sorted out in the next 5 years(which is rather ambitious)…and it enters service in 2030. It would be expected to serve up to 2050.

By that time…would it be relevant? Or would it become obsolete fast due to its own airframe limitations and also due to the pace with which technology is progressing(with China introducing 6th gen, US with NGAD, and various other European, Japanese, South Korean, Russian…all well more advanced than anything PFX would be). India too would have surely figured out Tejas(MK1/MK2) and probably TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA as well would either already have started production/entered service or would be close to doing so.

Should then Pakistan look towards more J10s? Bcuz surely 4.5 gen jets would still be needed to make up numbers…it would be too costly for PAF to make up large numbers with J35 or KAAN.

Or should Pakistan team up with China to assist in redesigning(enlarging) JF17?
Or perhaps team up with Turkey(with their experience in Hurjet and Pak’s experience with JF17) and have a JV for a medium sized 4.5 gen fighter jet?

Or focus on loyal wingman type of drones…that can make up numbers and work in tandem with J35/KAAN…so that attrition isn’t an issue(due to their cost effectiveness and large numbers)…while still doing in 2050s…what a 4.5 gen jet does today(in terms of role).

It is hard to pick what would be the best option. No doubt things like loyal wingman, loitering, and swarm drones concepts are coming…and will be an important factor in future battles…but we are at a crossroads of that potential future right now…and for something like that…that is yet not battle proven and more a concept than reality…it is hard for an airforce like PAF to take a plunge with certainty…
…I hope PAF planners are geniuses and make the right choice…bcuz the enemy is bigger, with more resources, bigger budget, and a fledgling local industry(soon to expand drastically with private players and help from the west). Any wrong decisions would be punished heavily(even if not directly in a war…then surely in terms of quality/quantity and losing the edge).
@Oscar @Quwa @Deino @Yasser76

Given the geo-strategic condition, IMO the PAF is readying itself for a 2-front situation where you need to scale your capabilities accordingly. For an example, if the PAF is heavily engaged inside Afganistan it needs to also deter the IAF from getting into any mischiefs....

 

[Oscar]

J
…I hope PAF planners are geniuses and make the right choice…bcuz the enemy is bigger, with more resources, bigger budget, and a fledgling local industry(soon to expand drastically with private players and help from the west). Any wrong decisions would be punished heavily(even if not directly in a war…then surely in terms of quality/quantity and losing the edge).
@Oscar @Quwa @Deino @Yasser76

Here is what PAF planners are

 

[Oscar]

On a more serious note

@Oscar @Quwa @Deino @Yasser76

PFX is another golden child of PAF’s wishful thinking. You’d think they’d already have their hands full juggling J-10Cs, those shiny new J-35 stealth jets on order, and flirtations with Turkey over the KAAN program. But nope, here comes PFX, parachuting into the scene with promises of stealth, indigenous tech, and cutting-edge capabilities. Bold? Sure. Plausible? Well, let’s unpack this circus act.

First off, the J-35s. Forty of them, apparently. That’s a big check to write, even if the price is a “friendship discount” from Beijing. Those jets aren’t just a big deal—they’re supposed to be the backbone of PAF’s air superiority for the next couple of decades. But while they’re getting those fifth-gen goodies off the shelf, they’re also over here pretending PFX is going to be anything but a glorified JF-17+ by the time it rolls out—if it rolls out.

Then we’ve got the Turkish KAAN. PAF has been all coy about this one, talking up partnerships and “exploring synergies” or whatever buzzword they’re using this week. Let’s call it what it is: another side project to distract from the fact that real indigenous capability is still a pipe dream. Turkey’s having enough on it’s plate getting KAAN off the ground for it’s own uses, and now PAF wants to join in? It’s like trying to help your neighbor build their house when your own roof is leaking.
The Saudis are a more effective partner - at least they have money.

Meanwhile, let’s not forget the JF-17 Block III upgrades, which are supposed to keep the PAF relevant in the near term. That project is already stretching resources and focus. Sure, it’s a solid workhorse, but the fact that it’s still reliant on Chinese tech underscores just how far PAF has to go before it can even dream of developing something like PFX.

And that’s the real kicker. PAF is trying to do all these things at once—upgrade the JF-17, integrate J-10Cs, field the J-35, cozy up to Turkey, and now build PFX. Where’s the money, the manpower, and the organizational discipline for all this? It’s like a guy trying to fix his old car, buy a new one, and build a custom sports car in his garage—all while being late on his rent.

Real talk: the PFX is probably going to end up as another “visionary” project that exists mostly on paper and gets someone a medal(and associated plots) .
At best, we’ll see a prototype that’s heavily dependent on foreign components. At worst, it gets quietly shelved while PAF keeps buying imports and slapping “indigenous” labels on them. They’re already busy trying to make J-35s work with their infrastructure, let alone managing a stealth fighter project from scratch.

In the end, PFX feels less like a serious project and more like a marketing stunt to keep the morale high and the headlines glowing. They’ll wave some flashy renders around, talk about timelines that nobody believes, and keep everyone guessing until reality inevitably sets in. But hey, Pakistan’s always been good at one thing: keeping the illusion of progress alive.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

You’d think they’d already have their hands full juggling J-10Cs, those shiny new J-35 stealth jets on order, and flirtations with Turkey over the KAAN program. But nope, here comes PFX, parachuting into the scene with promises of stealth, indigenous tech, and cutting-edge capabilities. Bold? Sure. Plausible? Well, let’s unpack this circus act.

First off, the J-35s. Forty of them, apparently. That’s a big check to write, even if the price is a “friendship discount” from Beijing. Those jets aren’t just a big deal—they’re supposed to be the backbone of PAF’s air superiority for the next couple of decades. But while they’re getting those fifth-gen goodies off the shelf, they’re also over here pretending PFX is going to be anything but a glorified JF-17+ by the time it rolls out—if it rolls out.

Then we’ve got the Turkish KAAN. PAF has been all coy about this one, talking up partnerships and “exploring synergies” or whatever buzzword they’re using this week. Let’s call it what it is: another side project to distract from the fact that real indigenous capability is still a pipe dream. Turkey’s having enough on it’s plate getting KAAN off the ground for it’s own uses, and now PAF wants to join in? It’s like trying to help your neighbor build their house when your own roof is leaking.
The Saudis are a more effective partner - at least they have money.

Meanwhile, let’s not forget the JF-17 Block III upgrades, which are supposed to keep the PAF relevant in the near term. That project is already stretching resources and focus. Sure, it’s a solid workhorse, but the fact that it’s still reliant on Chinese tech underscores just how far PAF has to go before it can even dream of developing something like PFX.

And that’s the real kicker. PAF is trying to do all these things at once—upgrade the JF-17, integrate J-10Cs, field the J-35, cozy up to Turkey, and now build PFX. Where’s the money, the manpower, and the organizational discipline for all this? It’s like a guy trying to fix his old car, buy a new one, and build a custom sports car in his garage—all while being late on his rent.

Real talk: the PFX is probably going to end up as another “visionary” project that exists mostly on paper and gets someone a medal(and associated plots) .
At best, we’ll see a prototype that’s heavily dependent on foreign components. At worst, it gets quietly shelved while PAF keeps buying imports and slapping “indigenous” labels on them. They’re already busy trying to make J-35s work with their infrastructure, let alone managing a stealth fighter project from scratch.

In the end, PFX feels less like a serious project and more like a marketing stunt to keep the morale high and the headlines glowing. They’ll wave some flashy renders around, talk about timelines that nobody believes, and keep everyone guessing until reality inevitably sets in. But hey, Pakistan’s always been good at one thing: keeping the illusion of progress alive.

If you want to get a job done find a busy person.....

FORTUNE favors the brave....

 

[Oscar]

If you want to get a job done find a busy person.....

FORTUNE favors the brave....

There are plenty of good competent and qualified people in PAF senior command who can take the most effective projects including PFX to completion - provided they are not sabotaged by the nincumpoops next to them or on top of them.

 

[Pak Shaheen]

IMO yes PFX(if it materializes in a realistic manner) would be a next block(upgrade) of JF17…along 4.5gen lines.

However what PAF/military planners really need to consider is that…
…how much utility can they get out JF17s frame?
…if let’s say PFX planning, design, production all gets sorted out in the next 5 years(which is rather ambitious)…and it enters service in 2030. It would be expected to serve up to 2050.

By that time…would it be relevant? Or would it become obsolete fast due to its own airframe limitations and also due to the pace with which technology is progressing(with China introducing 6th gen, US with NGAD, and various other European, Japanese, South Korean, Russian…all well more advanced than anything PFX would be). India too would have surely figured out Tejas(MK1/MK2) and probably TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA as well would either already have started production/entered service or would be close to doing so.

Should then Pakistan look towards more J10s? Bcuz surely 4.5 gen jets would still be needed to make up numbers…it would be too costly for PAF to make up large numbers with J35 or KAAN.

Or should Pakistan team up with China to assist in redesigning(enlarging) JF17?
Or perhaps team up with Turkey(with their experience in Hurjet and Pak’s experience with JF17) and have a JV for a medium sized 4.5 gen fighter jet?

Or focus on loyal wingman type of drones…that can make up numbers and work in tandem with J35/KAAN…so that attrition isn’t an issue(due to their cost effectiveness and large numbers)…while still doing in 2050s…what a 4.5 gen jet does today(in terms of role).

It is hard to pick what would be the best option. No doubt things like loyal wingman, loitering, and swarm drones concepts are coming…and will be an important factor in future battles…but we are at a crossroads of that potential future right now…and for something like that…that is yet not battle proven and more a concept than reality…it is hard for an airforce like PAF to take a plunge with certainty…
…I hope PAF planners are geniuses and make the right choice…bcuz the enemy is bigger, with more resources, bigger budget, and a fledgling local industry(soon to expand drastically with private players and help from the west). Any wrong decisions would be punished heavily(even if not directly in a war…then surely in terms of quality/quantity and losing the edge).
@Oscar @Quwa @Deino @Yasser76

1. Indian aero development history was commented best by IAF chief very recently where he pointed out that the even first 40 Tejas hasn't been delivered.
2. India also has very cordial relations with France,US, and Russia like we have with China and Turkey. Look at Indian engine predicament. Lesson here is that no country will give you niche technologies which holds strategic significance in overall development lifecycle of an aircraft and this is where PFX becomes a "Mandatory" milestone for PAF to truely be able to initiate OWN advanced 5G fighter program like Azm. In short, PFX is a realization on the part of PAF about the missing links in its current industrial prowess.

 

[Cookie Monster]

1. Indian aero development history was commented best by IAF chief very recently where he pointed out that the even first 40 Tejas hasn't been delivered.
2. India also has very cordial relations with France,US, and Russia like we have with China and Turkey. Look at Indian engine predicament. Lesson here is that no country will give you niche technologies which holds strategic significance in overall development lifecycle of an aircraft and this is where PFX becomes a "Mandatory" milestone for PAF to truely be able to initiate OWN advanced 5G fighter program like Azm. In short, PFX is a realization on the part of PAF about the missing links in its current industrial prowess.

As for ur point one…just bcuz ur enemy failed at something…doesn’t mean they will continue to fail…
…especially bcuz they haven’t given up. They are going to keep trying. They have the economic might, their IITs are churning out scientists and engineers in massive numbers, and their private sector is starting to get involved, which should sort out the mediocrity often found in the government run entities of the subcontinent.
…underestimate them at ur own peril.

As for point 2. I m not at all against progress. I never argued that always buying off the shelf and never growing ur own capabilities/capacity is the way forward…
…it’s clearly not like that. If anything that is unsustainable.
…but with limited resources…that inevitably have to be split between buying off the shelf(bcuz Pakistan isn’t exactly at the forefront of key technologies) and some capital being diverted towards localizing or indigenous development(for basically anything in question)…one must do so carefully and efficiently…as not to be wasteful with a much limited capital. It is in that context that I discussed PFX in that post above.

 

[Zarvan]

Lol, how you can be so sure that PAF can order J-35 in 150 in numbers? Where is the $$$ to buy J-35 in such a huge numbers? And don't tell me China will give us 150 J-35 on soft loans lol, we have no imminent from our enemy (India) placing an order of stealth jet any time soon, so its illogical and ridiculous to have such a huge numbers of stealth jet in our arsenal, I expect more order of J-10C and JF-17 BLK-3/4 rather then a 150 J-35, after 2030 PAF arsenal could be 36-72 J-35, 80-100 J-10C and 50- 80 JF-17 BLK-3/4 are the most reasonable and sensible projected arsenal in near future

You're immature and ridiculous kind of guy who don't lives in reality and don't believe in logic and common sense lol

You will see yourself. As for the money part. Please explain to me where we got the money to order 8 submarines, 4 Type 54 A Frigates, 4 Babur Class Corvettes, 4 Tabuk Class OPV, producing missile boats, JF-17 production, J-10 C induction, Akinci, Wing Long II, Shahpar II, Sea Sultan planes around 9 AWACS out of which 6 came in last couple of years, VT 4 Tanks, wheeled APC, new MRAP from Thailand, HQ 9 for both Army and Air Force, HQ 16, HQ 7, CH-4 Drones should I continue with other weapon systems ? When you find an answer to these than come and question where we would get the money to have 150 J-35. 150 won't be ordered in first go. It would be like 40 will be first order when that is completed may 40 more ordered or only 20 more than 20 more than 20. Like that our final J-35 will reach 100 minimum go way beyond 100.

 

[Zarvan]

Agreed, we have alot of work to do in even basic aircraft design, let alone the stuff we discuss here on the forum.

Sad AZM noises:View attachment 94934

That is exactly why PFX is not our solo project, that is the lesson we learnt, we have limited resources which need to be increased therefore technological, and training will come from Turkey and Arabs will finance it.

 

[Pak Shaheen]

As for ur point one…just bcuz ur enemy failed at something…doesn’t mean they will continue to fail…
…especially bcuz they haven’t given up. They are going to keep trying. They have the economic might, their IITs are churning out scientists and engineers in massive numbers, and their private sector is starting to get involved, which should sort out the mediocrity often found in the government run entities of the subcontinent.
…underestimate them at ur own peril.

As for point 2. I m not at all against progress. I never argued that always buying off the shelf and never growing ur own capabilities/capacity is the way forward…
…it’s clearly not like that. If anything that is unsustainable.
…but with limited resources…that inevitably have to be split between buying off the shelf(bcuz Pakistan isn’t exactly at the forefront of key technologies) and some capital being diverted towards localizing or indigenous development(for basically anything in question)…one must do so carefully and efficiently…as not to be wasteful with a much limited capital. It is in that context that I discussed PFX in that post above.

And I just tried to explain why PFX is important despite bright prospects of imports from China and Turkey (in future). When enemy is progressing in home grown tech you don't have luxury of imports forever. PFX is exactly what IAF had to face when in 1980's India initiated a 4th gen fighter program without requisit engineering base in the country. Now, after learning lessons from Azm which never progressed beyond 2 phases of PDR (Preliminary Design Phase), PAF has adopted a much mature appraoch of developing all requisit technologies (excluding Powerplant) like avionics, flight control system, weapons etc. around a platform that already is part of PAF. This project to develop these technologies in house to cover the ground to minimize the imports for its workhorse of future is part of country's industrial progress more than a defense specific project. For Hi-end, J-35s will come in. What i mean to say is PFX must not be viewed from operational PoV but more so as an industry building and capacity building exercise.

 

[Zarvan]

And I just tried to explain why PFX is important despite bright prospects of imports from China and Turkey (in future). When enemy is progressing in home grown tech you don't have luxury of imports forever. PFX is exactly what IAF had to face when in 1980's India initiated a 4th gen fighter program without requisit engineering base in the country. Now, after learning lessons from Azm which never progressed beyond 2 phases of PDR (Preliminary Design Phase), PAF has adopted a much mature appraoch of developing all requisit technologies (excluding Powerplant) like avionics, flight control system, weapons etc. in house to cover the ground to minimize the imports for its workhorse of future. For Hi-end, J-35s will come in. What i mean to say is PFX must not be viewed from operational PoV but more so as an industry building and capacity building exercise.

Can't agree more, Azm project as a solo thing was really out of our league, But Arabs bringing in money and Turkey giving technological help will make all the difference and give us technologies and training and trained manpower we need to increase number of such projects.

 

[Ak01]

That is exactly why PFX is not our solo project, that is the lesson we learnt, we have limited resources which need to be increased therefore technological, and training will come from Turkey and Arabs will finance it.

Are the Arabs aware they're financing it? Last i heard they're sick of bankrolling Pakistan...

The Turks would be better off running than trying to work with us.

lets try to stay realistic.