JF-17 PFX program

[Zarvan]

I'm not Indian but a Pakistani sir which believe in reality and history most of @Zarvan posts refer to those projects deals when $$$ wasn't much a problem for Pakistan (post 2010), but currently Pakistan is in jeopardy

Type 54 was ordered around corona days when were most badly hit. So were Tabuk class OPV. Babar class was ordered a year before. Which world you live in. In past four years we have acquired J-10 C, HQ 9, HQ 16 latest version, Akinci, VT 4, Drones, SH15 Artillery, several Frigates, Corvettes and OPV but you are again in denial. Don't worry after 5 to 8 years when we would be inducting KAAN or destroyers like Type 52 DL or TF 2000 of Turkey you would be raising same questions. On every weapon system you would ask same question no matter how much we induct you are what they call national cynic.

 

[Ak01]

Type 54 was ordered around corona days when were most badly hit. So were Tabuk class OPV. Babar class was ordered a year before. Which world you live in. In past four years we have acquired J-10 C, HQ 9, HQ 16 latest version, Akinci, VT 4, Drones, SH15 Artillery, several Frigates, Corvettes and OPV but you are again in denial. Don't worry after 5 to 8 years when we would be inducting KAAN or destroyers like Type 52 DL or TF 2000 of Turkey you would be raising same questions. On every weapon system you would ask same question no matter how much we induct you are what they call national cynic.

054a was ordered 2 yeaes before covid. Yarmooks were the same situation. Babur a year before- but it was a competitive evaluation process so funds were earmarked before. J-10C paid for with heavy loans. Akinci- we only have two of. SH-15 literally bankrolled by Chinese loans.

Literally all of this has been paid for with loans, with the biggest ticket items ordered before covid even hit... BTW 054A's were heavily subsidised.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Type 54 was ordered around corona days when were most badly hit. So were Tabuk class OPV. Babar class was ordered a year before. Which world you live in. In past four years we have acquired J-10 C, HQ 9, HQ 16 latest version, Akinci, VT 4, Drones, SH15 Artillery, several Frigates, Corvettes and OPV but you are again in denial. Don't worry after 5 to 8 years when we would be inducting KAAN or destroyers like Type 52 DL or TF 2000 of Turkey you would be raising same questions. On every weapon system you would ask same question no matter how much we induct you are what they call national cynic.

keep living in your utopia and lala land, that all of our recent procurements deals were signed within 4-5 years, you're in real delusional man

 

[Oscar]

This is what I am wondering? Where do we get the money, and then the manpower from?

Fauj kay pas training kay liay paisa nhn hota (at some time in the not so distant past), and PAF is on a spree.

Is China really giving us that many loans? For what though? Just to counter India?

It’s a case of pareto principle -except split 70:30 for PAF and 40:60 for the army

 

[Ak01]

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I find it interesting that they specifically mentioned "AESA & Extended Range BVR Capabilities"

 

[Ali_Baba]

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I find it interesting that they specifically mentioned "AESA & Extended Range BVR Capabilities"

Hmm - interesting - will they show off PL15E capability at this exercise? Will be interesting if they do ( I dont think they will, etc ).

 

[Ak01]

Hmm - interesting - will they show off PL15E capability at this exercise? Will be interesting if they do ( I dont think they will, etc ).

Im not sure this actually means PL15E. I think its a poorly done script referring to extended range engagements made possible via the new radar. The PAF has explicitly been talking about JF-17 PL15E for the last decade, would be real strange to now create mystery and ambiguity lol.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

IMO...

The PAF should call it a day and commit to 150 J-35s by 2040.

Forget PFX.

Just set a clear cut long-term requirement as-is, and focus the other resources on the economy and driving foreign currency gains to finance platform purchases.

Except for munitions, IMO, the indigenous production of air platforms is needless. It'd be best to leverage the limited resources to get good at AAM, SAM, SOW, ALCM, etc production. Set up parallel production lines, is indigenize more inputs, and be at a level where you can sustain a war effort.

If you have a strong economy, someone will sell you what you need re: platforms. An Indo-Pak War wouldn't last more than a few weeks, so the idea of having domestic fighter production makes no sense. Best case, you'll make 1 jet in war, and worst case, they'll destroy our assembly plant.

The platforms you get are in peacetime; in wartime, munitions and having as many available launch platforms as possible matters more (read: leverage UCAV).

So, if there needs to be an indigenous air platform, then make it a 2-3-ton UCAV. A comparatively simpler LO design (versus an NGFA) with a goal of having multiple final assembly lines so that we can roll a dozen a week at full capacity.

Those UCAVs are going to play a bigger role as strike assets (especially in high risk engagements) in a war, and being able to replace lost units rapidly would be key.

This is closer to what our industry can reach or realistically aspire to. We can even export them at a potentially good margin too.

This seems like the more sensible and reliable route to take. Double down on J-35s and potentially KAANs, and divert the resources for a PFX into something that can reap more rewards like you've suggested.

I think right now with the very limited amount of resources we have, spreading them thin will only create mediocre solutions with a lot of corners being cut everywhere. The necessity of PFX, especially a platform that isn't even truly stealth, doesn't seem like it adds a major capability to the air force anyway.

 

[frontline360news]

This seems like the more sensible and reliable route to take. Double down on J-35s and potentially KAANs, and divert the resources for a PFX into something that can reap more rewards like you've suggested.

I think right now with the very limited amount of resources we have, spreading them thin will only create mediocre solutions with a lot of corners being cut everywhere. The necessity of PFX, especially a platform that isn't even truly stealth, doesn't seem like it adds a major capability to the air force anyway.

While prioritizing the J-35 and KAAN may seem like a more reliable short-term strategy, the development of the PFX is crucial for Pakistan's long-term self-sufficiency in defense. Relying solely on foreign aircraft such as the J-35 creates strategic dependency and leaves Pakistan vulnerable to geopolitical shifts that could restrict access to advanced fighter jets. With the JF-17 Block 3 production line expected to close in 5 to 6 years, Pakistan needs a homegrown replacement to maintain its aerial combat capabilities.

Moreover, while PFX may not be fully stealth, its 4.5-generation capabilities make it a competitive and cost-effective fighter for export to developing nations looking for affordable, high-performance jets. This could be a game-changer for Pakistan’s defense industry, generating revenue and allowing further advancements in domestic aviation technology. Instead of viewing PFX as an unnecessary project, it should be seen as a strategic investment in national defense and economic growth, reducing reliance on external suppliers and positioning Pakistan as an emerging defense manufacturer.

 

[Fatman17]

JF-17 project ran into delays but thankfully on track. JF-17 Thunder Block-III is being delivered. Eventually all JF-17 will be upgraded to the evolving Block-III standard.
Biggest delays we have seen is in the 8 S-20 (039) project with Germany not providing engines for the boats under pressure from the USA. Hopefully the project is now moving forward with 3 boats under construction and 1 completed.
The USA stopped delivery of the 12 Super Cobras helicopters and then refused NOC to Turkey for the engines which are fitted on the Turkish armed helicopter. 1.5B$ deal.
Financial and geopolitical issues have caused delays to some of our major defence projects but somehow the armed forces are coping with the situation.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

JF17 Block III , is a mile stone , and the force will continue to expand JF17 Block III
It is ideal intercept plane with new missiles it offers 24/7 coverage.

• Already success with 150+ units in PAF
• Export Orders with Foreign Nations
• Strong chance of Export to world Nations

JF17-PFX would be much awaited evolution of platform , you are taking existing platform which is Battle proven and now enhancing it further. Similar to how F14 Became F-15, and later design of F-18 Evolved. I think goal will always be a plane which can provide workhorse role. The numbers can be increased based on need. F16 DNA

• Air Superiority , visualizing more missiles
• More powerful Engine
• More mission time
• Concepts we could not implement on J17 Block III might be possible on PFX

PFX is really a chance to show what can be done with Pakistani Engineers
Would be nice to see Pakistani BVR Missiles on this platform

Engineers will of course learn lesson of enhancing design , possible growth of manufacturing of parts industry

J-35 is a new design which will take good 10-15 years for design to mature even when it is used by Airforce. Chance to use in Airforce grow it

KAAN is new design as well which will take time as well ambitious design by Turkey , we can continue to learn obviously more European Style Engineering. The plane will be of course manufactured for Turkish Airforce , eventually the export orders will take place. Turkey of course need to cover for their F16 Fleet so assume they will manufacture at least 100-150 KAAN

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

JF17 Block III , is a mile stone , and the force will continue to expand JF17 Block III
It is ideal intercept plane with new missiles it offers 24/7 coverage.

• Already success with 150+ units in PAF
• Export Orders with Foreign Nations
• Strong chance of Export to world Nations

JF17-PFX would be much awaited evolution of platform , you are taking existing platform which is Battle proven and now enhancing it further. Similar to how F14 Became F-15, and later design of F-18 Evolved. I think goal will always be a plane which can provide workhorse role. The numbers can be increased based on need. F16 DNA

• Air Superiority , visualizing more missiles
• More powerful Engine
• More mission time
• Concepts we could not implement on J17 Block III might be possible on PFX

PFX is really a chance to show what can be done with Pakistani Engineers
Would be nice to see Pakistani BVR Missiles on this platform

Engineers will of course learn lesson of enhancing design , possible growth of manufacturing of parts industry

J-35 is a new design which will take good 10-15 years for design to mature even when it is used by Airforce. Chance to use in Airforce grow it

KAAN is new design as well which will take time as well ambitious design by Turkey , we can continue to learn obviously more European Style Engineering. The plane will be of course manufactured for Turkish Airforce , eventually the export orders will take place. Turkey of course need to cover for their F16 Fleet so assume they will manufacture at least 100-150 KAAN

In my view, relying on a single-engine design with an RD-93MA, WS-21, or similar class engine might be a compromise for the PFX jet project. It would be better if benefit from an engine in the WS-10 class to adequately meet power demands. In this era of aerial warfare, modern jets require significant electrical power for electronic warfare systems and the latest advanced gadgets.

 

[StormBreaker]

@RescueRanger and others. What’s PFX now? How could I miss such an important/major thing?

Is it some avionics upgrade program like MLU or GRIPEN->Gripen NG type thing?

 

[RescueRanger]

@RescueRanger and others. What’s PFX now? How could I miss such an important/major thing?

Is it some avionics upgrade program like MLU or GRIPEN->Gripen NG type thing?

An experimental program with the long term goal of completely managing the Thunder platform.

 

[maxpane]

An experimental program with the long term goal of completely managing the Thunder platform.

sorry but i want to ask as a layman and dnt have aviation background but why we want to manage thunder project when future is going to be all about fifth gen ai etc