JF-17 PFX program

[That_Guy]

You know nothing about international politics.

LMAO

I know way more than you, bro.

You don't seem to understand what consequences are.

Unfortunately for you, I have evidence for my claims. You do not have any for yours.

If China was going to sell any of the J-11 derivatives, it would be marketing them already. The Chinese are not, and the reason is obvious.

Sit down, and learn next time.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

My assessment covers our "immediate" or short term needs of PAF at 350 capable jets. J-10C's would be better if received in 1 hundred and all Mirages and F-7's retired because they've become essentially useless in today's warfare and secondly, the money being spend on these 200 airframes can be saved and diverted to getting more J-10C's that give us 100 times more capability than these 50 year old jets. But all these may not happen until after 2028. So for now until next 3-5 years, a 350 BVR capable force is a must.

PFX will start adding more numbers also after 2028.

Post 2030, I think our force requirements will change as economy will grow. Expect up to 500 Jets. India will be adding another 400-500 jets over the next 7-10 years. Our best option is to maintain a 2:1 ratio especially after our economy expands post 2028.




JF-17 PFX means we'll build on JF-17's existing manufacturing baseline with extension of JF-17 design initially. Call it the PFX ALPHA version. That way, in short term, we are adding 4.5 gen capability.

Beyond Alpha, the PFX will have two results long term:

1) Use a 5th Gen concept design like a single engine J-20 that we've seen. I'll add that here. This is a Chinese design.

2) A KAAN version for Pakistan. This will have inter-operability to both, Chinese and Western weapons.


View attachment 136478

While I may not be an expert in Aeronautics
However even I can tell these joints will break when high speed turn is attempted

In slow speed scaled testing may be these will not break off
but once plane start moving high speed and when it will turn those things at back will be flying out after breaking

These are literally hanging by a tooth pick bolts

 

[RajaBaja]

YES. i talked about this a long time ago.

If this program is called “JF-17 PFX”, then it means that it is an extension of the JF-17 program for Pakistan and China to continue working together. Turkey is not involved.

If the program is called “PFX”, then it means it is a new program between Pakistan and Turkey. China is not involved.

These are two completely different concepts.

View attachment 136506


While I may not be an expert in Aeronautics
However even I can tell these joints will break when high speed turn is attempted

In slow speed scaled testing may be these will not break off
but once plane start moving high speed and when it will turn those things at back will be flying out after breaking

These are literally hanging by a tooth pick bolts


View attachment 136507

OH! So those 500 Jets ALREADY standing on airfields will be damaged in flight per your assessment?

Boss - This is just a proposed design NASTP has. You put a test ready model under Wind Tunnel testing and ALL the flaws of the airframe will come out. The final design goes through repetitions until a final design that withstands the required life span exists, usually around 30 years.

 

[Scorpio]

According to public information, there is indeed an intellectual property protection agreement between China and Russia regarding the Su-27 series fighter jets and their derivative designs.
But this is not the point.

Many Pakistani friends' imaginations about PAF are completely out of touch with reality. This world is not a place where I can get whatever I need.
Ideally, any country needs heavy fighters (bomb trucks). But the reality is not like that. Many people simply understand the demand, but they don't know what price they have to pay for it.

Exactly.. Cost of induction, maintenance and specially operational .. is to much for PAF ... That's way PAF remains with single engine fighters (expect one) ..

PAD prefer light or max medium weight jet at max

 

[Scorpio]

The J-15 doesn’t fall under those agreement since China purchased the blueprint from Ukraine. J-15 is a beast, the best flanker China has got.

Again .. operational cost metters.. these flankers fly hours not cheep and engined overall life is also not much ..

 

[Scorpio]

Guys, I think you are completely missing the point.

Pakistan is totally incapable of possessing modern heavy fighter aircraft.

PAF previously purchased 20 J-10CE fighters.
1. 20 J-10CE. This is a very small number. The standard establishment of a PLAAF fighter brigade is 24 fighters.
2. J-10CE is the cheapest fighter among China's modern fighters.
3. Even for this low and cheap fighter order, most of the funds for PAF's purchase still came from Chinese loans.

Modern heavy fighters are not only very expensive to buy, but also very expensive to maintain. This is not something Pakistan can afford.

If Pakistan has enough money and willingness, we can simplify the J-20 to make it cost the same as the J-16. I believe that at the same price, anyone will choose the J-20 (simplified version) instead of the J-16. This is not difficult for CAC.

Cancel the stealth skin and coating and use ordinary skin instead.​

Simplify the E/W system of the J-20, moderately reduce the capacity of the AESA, etc. ...​

This has no impact on China's national defense security.

The core of the problem is: Pakistan has no money!!!

That can be water down version of J20 .. even then it will expensive for PAF....

Funds are actual case in first place.... That's why PAF overhaul Mirages agian and agian to maintain numbers .. from years...

Even now JF17 block 3 induction is too slow, new units are routed towards export customer... To have some money input ....

 

[Scorpio]

I mean to tell you. Russia needs China more now, and China does not need to worry about whether Russia is happy. So, if we decide to sell heavy fighter jets abroad, Russia's opinion will not matter.

Do we see export version or exhibit the J11, J16 or even J15 any where in past or present..

 

[Scorpio]

Sorry to correct you utterly nonsense that PAF cannot posses modern heavy twin engine fighter jet. Multiple airforces operate Russian twin engine fighter jets which don't come close to PAF. Its PAF own choice not to get it due it's own decision making and procurement mechanisms and future sight. Now based on recent conflict some changes need to be done in procurement and strategy front. There is a gap is pak offensive Punch because PAF mirages are in retirement phase. So many of us believe that PAF should get twin engine heavy 4.5 gen get compromising of 2 Sq minimum. It's not necessary to get from Russia or China. Pak can get some used American ones too. As far as money is concern they can arrange it for PAF the gov of Pak based on their trumendous performance and keeping in mind next conflict which will comprise of air power which will ultimately play major role in outcome of war.

What good used American jet like F15 or F18 will bring to PAF ...
Just set of restrictions ...

 

[Scorpio]

I think the following makes sense. Before anyone jumps to "money", these procurements aren't being done in a day. Payments can be made in batches for that, we can fund it.

1- JF-17 - Total 180. Block II's upgraded urgently with at AESA radars immediately for PL-15 integration as that's our deterrence now.
2: J-10C - Acquire more. Minimum 80 (ideally 100) and retire multiple Mirage, F-7 squadrons because with S-400 redundant envelop, these jets are high risk in a conflict and really need to go.
3: 5th Gen: Whether J-35 or something else in the future. 40, ideally 60 to create a Naval air arm as from 2028, our trade will significantly increase and will need dedicated air arm for the navy so like 2 squadrons initially.
4: F-16's: Upgrade MLU's from Turkey one last time. As the joint BVR project gives a true product, it will match in range with Meteor.
5: 18 F-16's to upgrade to block 70 standard. Its sort of useless because AMRAAM-D's, even if given will still be below range and capability vs. the meteor. So good for tier II defense only.

This gives us JF-17: 180+ 80 J-10C's = 260 Tier I jets with PL-15 capable. Add F-16's: Total: 335 jets for tier I and II defensive posture.

AWACS - EW: Upgrade Erieye to global Erieye radars. We'll get 4 ZDK's converted into EW planes. We may need about 2-4 KJ-500 due to mass weapons deployment, larger track and target range capability, especially on the sea front as our Naval assets are majority Chinese.

2030 and onwards: Add PFX to the fleet. Eventually going to 450 jets with 4.5 and about 80-100 5th gen platforms.

*** In a TRUE sense, looking at Indian weapons acquisition. I personally think the PAF's future is majority stealth jets because the the line of control will be lit up with Indian sensors soon and redundant tiers of SAM systems like the S-400 and others. So PAF will need to go to 5th gen majority in the near future. However, the economy will need to cross a trillion first. So this part will present itself after 2028 on how many 5th gen the PAF needs.

Who will be findings all this stuff ... .

Do PAF have that much funds ...

Loans have limits.... Returning condition with heavy markups ...

 

[Scorpio]

Calling it JF17-PFX is confusing, as it may not have anything to do with the JF17.

@Fatman17 ? Thoughts? Can we get it renamed? - "Pakistan PFX programme News, Updates and Discussions"

No body is sure .. is it any advance block of JF17 block X or entirely new airframe JF-XX

 

[RajaBaja]

Who will be findings all this stuff ... .

Do PAF have that much funds ...

Loans have limits.... Returning condition with heavy markups ...

You don't read the entire thing I post many of your questions and the post below is also answered in my multiple posts on this JF-17 and PFX......

I've noticed that about people here. I think they just post to post. Not post with question as a follow up.

 

[Bentley777]

What good used American jet like F15 or F18 will bring to PAF ...
Just set of restrictions ...

no restrictions in war time PAF has stated multiple times through retired officers in case of war pak Will use them no matter what restrictions are.

 

[RajaBaja]

Let me put it this way. You know nothing about the tasks facing the Chinese Air Force. Because the Air Force wants to seize air superiority within the first island chain, the Chinese Air Force only wants heavy fighters. The existing heavy fighter production capacity is not enough for the Chinese Air Force, so how can it be exported?
Why does Chengfei have J36? That is to cope with the extreme demand of the Chinese Air Force for heavy fighters.
And, you pay attention. China is currently exporting medium-sized fighters, whether J10 or J35, because the Air Force is not interested in them. Their range and combat capabilities cannot be compared with heavy fighters, and they cannot effectively complete the Air Force's tasks. The only reason why the Air Force has to equip them is because of the economy.
There are only interests between countries. Trump illustrates this point well.
If China attacks Taiwan, Europe and the United States will immediately lift sanctions on Russia, and then you will see how Russia will treat China?
I think your thinking is very old-fashioned and naive. This is a world of jungle law, which has never changed.
Trump has torn up so many treaties, what are the consequences? Israel bombed Iran, what can Iran do?

Very real life world situation based post. China is only building J-10C's and J-35's for export markets and to fulfill its local area defense needs, including aircraft carrier operations because they operate in a rather limited area. Otherwise these jets don't play a grand role in true defense strategy.

This is also similar to how some Pakistanis think we should get J-20 or J-16's when these are not in our requirements. Unlike China due to the global area it has to defend and fight a future war in, Pakistan is the opposite. We have limited area to defend and go on offensive in. So these heavy aircrafts are not our requirements. J-10C and J-35 are actually better for us when in good numbers.

 

[gangsta_rap]

This is a world of jungle law, which has never changed.

We live in a rules based world order...

 

[Corax]

We live in a rules based world order...

Who sets the rules?