JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Pakistan's choices for fighter jets is very limited, ie only China. Türkiye is the only other option since Pakistan cannot develop its own planes, and wont be able to do so for quite some time( the PFX programme is a joke .. ). Having some level of military diversity in your fleet is useful in case a platform becomes compromised militarily.

"Diversification" seems to be used very loosely when it comes to talking about Pakistan's military imports.

What do people actually mean by diversity?

Are they looking for fighter aircraft coming from a number of different countries? Let's say, 36 J-35s, 36 Eurofighters, 36 Gripens, 36 F-15s and 36 Su-35s and this way Pakistan is not "dependent" on a sole provider.

I mean, Pakistan will buy what it needs and so far all of our needs are being fulfilled by importing more than 80% of military hardware from China.

In the past, when Pakistan was an American/European diwana, only some of Pakistan's needs were being fulfilled and that too as part of military aid, pre-conditions. Who on earth wants Pakistan to go back to those days?

 

[AeronautIR]

[/QUOTE]

Most of what PAF sent for the JF17 project were military officers who have since either retired, or moved onto new projects. There is no institutional knowledge in Pakistan of aircraft design as Pakistan has no aircraft design house where knowledge is passed onto younger professionals who have made it their career choice to design planes. It is all military officers who treat it as the "next assignment" for their next promotion.

While I agree with many of the other points regarding lack of money and testing infrastructure etc., this statement is not correct and I have seen the proof in NASTP and PAC.
The promotion of those "military officers" depends on passing down skills to junior officers and PAF is doing a fine job in skill-development.
However, the dearth of resources and no players in private sector will definitely prolong the timeline of any indigenous project.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

You kinda sound like first wife jealous of second wife

No brother. I just can't figure out this obsession of Pakistanis wanting to collaborate with Turkiye (or even the Europeans) in military field when Pakistan has imported over 80% of its military hardware recently from China.

Is the Chinese military hardware somehow failing Pakistani military? Is collaboration with China somehow not an option?

From what I can see, the Pakistani military leadership is heavily collaborating with China in military fields, but it's not making any noise about it. Results are, Pakistani airstrikes on Afghanistan, Iran and India since December 2021.

 

[Michael]

a) Pakistan does not have the pool of engineers to be able to make a new fighter design. Where are the trained engineers with proven track history of taking a design they have done to production? Most of what PAF sent for the JF17 project were military officers who have since either retired, or moved onto new projects. There is no institutional knowledge in Pakistan of aircraft design as Pakistan has no aircraft design house where knowledge is passed onto younger professionals who have made it their career choice to design planes. It is all military officers who treat it as the "next assignment" for their next promotion.
b) Pakistan does not have a good enough university network to be able to do the core R&D required for a project of that scope. The core R&D for military projects in the western world is actually done at an academic level. You only have to see the involvement of UK universities in GCAP to understand that. If you can name more than "1" university in Pakistan that can operate at that level, I will be impressed. It is not what Pakistani universities are geared up to do.

In terms of aircraft design expertise itself, Pakistan is not severely lacking. At least, there are enough talents to design a 4th-4.5th generation fighter jet.

Northwestern Polytechnical University. This university is the cradle of Chinese aircraft designers. The vast majority of designers and engineers in China's current aircraft industry come from this school. The university cooperates closely with Pakistan, training a large number of talents for Pakistan every year, including many doctoral students.

c) Pakistan does not have the infrastructure to test or validate any design of a fighter jet in Pakistan. All of the testing and validation infrastructure of a jet design, including large wind tunnels is in China for the JF17 platform. Turkieye went through a very visible expenditure programme to build all of those new facilities include stealth testing chambers, large wind tunnels in Turkieye.
d) Pakistan does not have the money for a project of that size of scale to do the project, or build the new infrastructure required for it, or even pay another country to use its facilities to test and validate the design.
e) Pakistan has no experience on designing a plane of any description in Pakistan let alone a military fast jet. All other projects were joint, with some low % of manufacturing done in Pakistan. Even the JF17 is still at the 58% for the airframe, which is arguably the simplest part. The only thing Pakistan has "designed" in Pakistan is some UAVs, and all of them are aerodynamically stable designs.
f) Pakistan lacks the infrastructure to validate a "scaled" up JF17 in the same way that the Gripen went to the Gripen-E.. Everything Pakistan has is to "validate" that a manufactured product meets a validated specification. There is nothing for that iterative design/validation cycle that is required in a development project.

Pakistan severely lacks research facilities and talent in the field of basic sciences.

Basic science research requires significant long-term investment, and its economic benefits only become apparent after a considerable period and through extensive applications in related disciplines. Most countries do not possess the necessary conditions for this.

 

[Michael]

Good question... the context of discussion was a good indigenous turbofan engine for Pakistani aircraft projects like PFX, may be for Turkish KAAN too... my point is that development of aircraft without own engine makes anyone highly dependent on suppliers.

Step 1: We first need to fully understand modern turbofan engines.
At least start with 100% local maintenance and overhaul. Then, introduce technology and all components from other countries and attempt to assemble them completely independently.

Step 2: We will try to manufacture these components ourselves, starting with the simplest parts within our capabilities. Continuously improve our industrial capabilities to increase the proportion of self-manufactured components, ultimately reaching 100%.

At this point, we can meet wartime needs.

Step 3: We can try to modify the working principles of certain components of the engine, i.e., independently upgrade the engine. This involves risks, but it is a necessary process.

Step 4: Design and manufacture independently.

This is how China has developed its industry over the past few decades.

 

[Cipher212]

No brother. I just can't figure out this obsession of Pakistanis wanting to collaborate with Turkiye (or even the Europeans) in military field when Pakistan has imported over 80% of its military hardware recently from China.

Is the Chinese military hardware somehow failing Pakistani military? Is collaboration with China somehow not an option?

From what I can see, the Pakistani military leadership is heavily collaborating with China in military fields, but it's not making any noise about it. Results are, Pakistani airstrikes on Afghanistan, Iran and India since December 2021.

We sprinkle in Turkish items wherever we can to keep variety of weapon choice. Minor stuff like pods, drones, jammers.

I think we also just keep it in the air to make the Chinese think we are not their sole option when negotiating on prices.

 

[Corax]

Good question... the context of discussion was a good indigenous turbofan engine for Pakistani aircraft projects like PFX, may be for Turkish KAAN too... my point is that development of aircraft without own engine makes anyone highly dependent on suppliers.

Not sure how much details you can provide, but would you be able to provide an overview of what PFX is? An advanced version of the JF17, i.e. block 4? Or a clean sheet design? There's been a lot of speculation on here. In addition, what happened to project Azm? Is that still ongoing? It seemed overly ambitious, e.g. directed energy weapons etc. Has that been effectively canceled in lieu of the TFX or J35?

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

We sprinkle in Turkish items wherever we can to keep variety of weapon choice. Minor stuff like pods, drones, jammers.

I think we also just keep it in the air to make the Chinese think we are not their sole option when negotiating on prices.

Maybe but the figure for import of military hardware is over 80%, so I have my doubts.

I think Pakistani and Chinese militaries are on a path to full NATO style military integration but they're doing it very quietly.

 

[m52k85]

I dont know why people cannot understand, the only technology it is (or more like, was) advantageous for the Pakistani state to share, within acceptable risk, was the American tech with China. No other direction makes sense for one or more reasons.

 

[Cipher212]

Maybe but the figure for import of military hardware is over 80%, so I have my doubts.

I think Pakistani and Chinese militaries are on a path to full NATO style military integration but they're doing it very quietly.

That is inevitable. Chinese military equipment keeps getting better and better. We bet on the right horse.

Headache for India too. Can't get anything better from France or Russia. Can't buy US with strings attached and their local projects are not meeting timelines.

 

[Michael]

I think we also just keep it in the air to make the Chinese think we are not their sole option when negotiating on prices.

If you are trying to gain an advantage in business negotiations with China, you should carefully study Sun Tzu's Art of War.

Your current approach is unlikely to be effective. It could even produce the opposite result.

I think Pakistani and Chinese militaries are on a path to full NATO style military integration but they're doing it very quietly.

There are no problems with cooperation between the two sides in the military field.

But, a comprehensive NATO-style military integration is not possible.

Pakistan's national foundations prevent it from achieving this model with China.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

Maybe but the figure for import of military hardware is over 80%, so I have my doubts.

I think Pakistani and Chinese militaries are on a path to full NATO style military integration but they're doing it very quietly.

Pakistan and China has strong friendship due to common interests but Pakistan and Turkey is more closer because of religion and history. People like Turkish culture, food, Dramas and historical series. How many people watch Chinese dramas or movies?

Don’t be jealous of Turkey. what if Pakistan started co-producing defense systems with Bangladesh?

 

[MasterChief]

If you are trying to gain an advantage in business negotiations with China, you should carefully study Sun Tzu's Art of War.

Your current approach is unlikely to be effective. It could even produce the opposite result.

There are no problems with cooperation between the two sides in the military field.

But, a comprehensive NATO-style military integration is not possible.

Pakistan's national foundations prevent it from achieving this model with China.

The art of war book is overhyped. If any specific field expert needs to read that to be good at what they do then they are no field expert

 

[AeronautIR]

Not sure how much details you can provide, but would you be able to provide an overview of what PFX is? An advanced version of the JF17, i.e. block 4? Or a clean sheet design? There's been a lot of speculation on here. In addition, what happened to project Azm? Is that still ongoing? It seemed overly ambitious, e.g. directed energy weapons etc. Has that been effectively canceled in lieu of the TFX or J35?

Wow, so many questions I don't have the exact details obviously but CPD JF-17 is now DCAS- PFX and here is my personal deduction from some other things too which I recently observed... I think they are working on a design in collaboration with China and Turkieye and this can be called as the new Azm project for indigenous 5th gen... now, as it is not easy and I think we will need a lot of help for engine and RAM coating, so it will definitely come after operationalization of J-35, maybe with some basic ToT...
Lastly, I think JF-17 block 1 will be replaced by an improved block 3 with semi-stealth features with name of block 4 or Alpha etc.
PS: This is just my opinion that we are working on both projects with 5th gen on backburner until J-35 helps us to better understand stealth.

 

[Corax]

Wow, so many questions I don't have the exact details obviously but CPD JF-17 is now DCAS- PFX and here is my personal deduction from some other things too which I recently observed... I think they are working on a design in collaboration with China and Turkieye and this can be called as the new Azm project for indigenous 5th gen... now, as it is not easy and I think we will need a lot of help for engine and RAM coating, so it will definitely come after operationalization of J-35, maybe with some basic ToT...
Lastly, I think JF-17 block 1 will be replaced by an improved block 3 with semi-stealth features with name of block 4 or Alpha etc.
PS: This is just my opinion that we are working on both projects with 5th gen on backburner until J-35 helps us to better understand stealth.

Thank your for your input. Forgive my ignorance, but what is meant by CPD and DCAS? I think this raises so many more questions! So for the roadmap we have PFX, project Azm in collaboration with Turkey and China, both as clean sheet designs, as well as a Block 4 JF17. Please correct me of I've misinterpreted. If we're also inducting J35, I guess that doesn't leave any scope for TFX in PAF colours?