Joint Defense Agreement: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, news & updates

Bro, i've really answered that thing about the Egyptian rafales many times.
YES SISI is a UAE puppet , no doubt about that. but the rafales aren't there anymore.
Egypt has a balanced relationship between Saudia and UAE, this is sisi backup if the situation goes downhill. Some say he is Israeli puppet and some say Usa puppet, and now people saying UAE puppet. Egypt also considers itself a great historical power so they must have their own interests in the region.
 
Just went through your post and there are so many wrong claims in it that I don't have the time or energy to educate you on the basics, a few examples should suffice.....


The Aga Khan was the permanent president of the League from March 1908 to November 1913, five and a half years, your "1 year in 1909" confuses the rotating session chairs with the party presidency, two different offices.....


You mixed up the two Rajas of Mahmudabad while lecturing me on remembering names...... the father Mohammad Ali Mohammad Khan was the early financier and sits in the League's own session president list for 1918, the son Amir Ahmad, your "born 8 years later", bankrolled the 1937 to 47 phase.....


"Opposed partition until 1940" is an anachronism...... partition only became League policy with the Lahore Resolution in March 1940, there was nothing to support before that.....


And "the clerical establishment was in self exile with no presence at all", the JUH was founded in 1919 and ran the Khilafat Movement...... the largest ulema led mass mobilization in Indian Muslim history.....


Now let's keep it simple and brief..... Do you actually deny that almost the entire organized Sunni religious establishment, Madani's Deoband, the Ahrar, Maududi, opposed Jinnah and his Pakistan movement tooth and nail? Yes or no....
Respectfully can we discuss the topic and not be side tracked?
 
Respectfully can we discuss the topic and not be side tracked?


Respectfully noted..... For the record, I only responded to posts presenting inaccurate sectarian claims as documented facts, and every reply I made was sourced..... And the point was never off topic, a sect less general Islam is what created Pakistan, and that is exactly the formula that should take pacts like the Makkah pact forward..... Back to the pact.....
 
Not the units who chose him .. Ottmani sultan refused him as wali.
But in 1805, prominent Egyptian religious scholars (ulama) and local civic leaders led by Omar Makram chose Muhammad Ali as the wali (governor) of Egypt, forcing the Ottoman Sultan to officially accept their appointment.

Sorry, you are right. The Albanian units of the Ottoman Army choose him as militairy leader of the corps in Egypt before he was chosen as a Wali.

He had good relations with Sultan Mahmud II in the beginning.

When the House of Saud conquered Mekkah and Medina and attacked Ottoman and Egyptisn garrisons, the Sultan asked him to start a campaign against the Wahabbis.

He took the task and crushed the Saudis, and took the Hejaz back. Then he succesfully took Sudan when Mahmud II requested, a very important nation for the economy of the Ottoman Empire.

And when the Greek rebels started their uprising, the Sultan promised him the island of Crete in exchange for crushing the insurgency.

He answered the call with his sons and massive navy, but his entire navy and that of the Sultan got sunked by a combined European navy led by Edward Codrington (John Connington in Game of Thrones is based on him) at the Battle of Navarino.

He was mad about this and wanted the province of Syria in return. Thats how the feud started.
 
Egypt simply has no place in this accord. They are tied by the treaty to serve zion, and get a yearly stipend for their services.
Maybe Egyptians have had enough of “serving Zion” and want to move on to “serving the Ummah” instead.

Egypt gets around $2 billion in annual military financing from the US. What if Saudi Arabia offered the same in return for switching sides?

Of course, that doesn't mean Egypt would be ordered to attack Israel. Egypt could continue to maintain its peace treaty with Israel, as long as Israel doesn't attack Türkiye, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.

Egypt could simply move away from the US-Israeli camp and towards a broader Muslim strategic alignment.

But please note: Egypt's peace treaty with Israel does not contain a provision saying that Egypt is obliged to remain neutral if Israel attacks third countries. Egypt could politically choose to remain neutral, support those countries diplomatically, or take other measures.
 
"The rank and file". "Kept placing". "40 years straight". Right...

The reason why minority sects were given important posts is because non-sectarianism was the only way they could get those posts? That made no sense. Regardless, did Devji present any evidence for his particular claim? That the league was made non-sectarian expressly so that the men from minority sects could lead? And what of your claim that the League's non sectarian "general Islam" was shaped by its Shia and Ismaili leadership to protect them from Sunnis? Did the Sunnis first make it non-sectarian 18 years before, during the Aligarh Movement, so that down the line they could form a political party with majority Sunni leadership who would then task another Sunni to codify its rules in which he would keep it non-sectarian so that minority leaders could rise to power and then.....again make it non-sectarian to protect themselves from Sunnis? Some people, who happened to be Sunnis, saw past these idiotic sectarian divides and formed a movement that was above it but that credit goes to the minority sects?.....

The explaining is simple when one is not searching for confirmation bias. The Aligarh Movement was a Muslim Nationalist movement with sectarianism against its very ethos. As such it appointed based on qualification, which it did for Sunnis, Shia, Ismaili, and Ahmadiya appointees. Minority sects holding positions of import is just as statistically inevitable as the majority making up the majority membership, in a non-sectarian organization. More if the those members hold un-statistically more favorable backgrounds, such as Imams, Industrialists, Rajas, and barristers.




No they weren't. Present evidence. "Calling the shots"...



"The actual Sunni religious establishment"? Again please spare us the rhetoric and conjecture that you need to downplay or uplift any sectarian views. The Muslim League was predominantly Sunni, was formed predominantly by Sunnis, was predominantly led by Sunnis, was based on a movement predominantly by Sunnis, was voted for and supported by the majority of Sunnis, and was voted for and supported by in majority Sunnis. That's "the actual Sunni establishment".

Want to know who the "actual minority establishment" was that opposed Pakistan?



A sectarian religious group did not come up with a non-sectarian political party!? Gasp! No way! Any minority sectarian religious groups that did? Want to know the minority orthodoxy that declared war on it as well?



No it wasn't. The "clerical establishment" was in self-exile from politics and had no presence at all at the time.

Sir Agha Khan officially presided as the president for 1 year in 1909. His lifetime presidency was an honorary position during which other presidents were being appointed in parallel to preside over their annual conferences. His immense contributions instead lay in his domestic and international political influence and party financing.

By the "Shia Raja" did you mean Mohammad Amir Ahmad Khan? *Would serve you well to remember the names of the people you want to piggyback off. Unquestionably a great man with immense services to the country, but you know that he was born 8 years after the Muslim League was formed, right? And that he opposed partition until 1940? Anyway, the party was almost exclusively financed by voluntary contributions and monthly subscriptions from most of the Muslim Nawabs, Rajas, aristocrats, and other wealthy Muslims. There was no one person financing it. For example, Khwaja Salimullah Bahadur, the Nawab of Dacca. Also the man who formally tabled the new party, served as the Vice President, and then as the President. He was Sunni, if that somehow matters.

The barrister was the only person who actual mattered or made a consequential difference, from the entirety of then India. His own words are enough to avoid any attempts at the sectarian flavoring of his being.

Thanks for mentioning three people. There were hundreds of thousands more Shia, Ismaili, Ahmadiya, Sunni, and Non-Muslims who worked hand in hand to make this country happen. Anyone who tries to take anything away from any one them, individually or collectively, is either uneducated or insecure.

All that said, the positions in the party were on a rotatory basis. For example, the president's post changed 25 times from 1907 till 1937 until Jinnah took it his 5th time and revamped the party. Until then, it was a well-intentioned but exclusive rich boy's club that met once a year with little standing and less to show for it.



Meaningless nonsensical statement clutching at some weird strawman of a "Sunni Clerical doctrine". Which minority's "clerical doctrine" was it then that made and ran the Muslim League?


There's a clear disconnect between your statements and just basic documented history. Don't believe you've ever made it past the hand full of names or "facts" someone once told you. Everything is available online these days.
Both of you are indulging yourselves in meaningless D measuring contest...
Men from minority sects were giants and the rest were piggies... that's the bottom lines...if pedantry tickles the cockles of your heart then feel free to continue.
 
Good to see the Bharatis are delusional as always.....

Elhamdulillah...

Pakistan-Saudi Arabia-Turkey Mecca Accord with no common enemy, & why it can’t be Islamic NATO​

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Good to see the Bharatis are delusional as always.....

Elhamdulillah...

Pakistan-Saudi Arabia-Turkey Mecca Accord with no common enemy, & why it can’t be Islamic NATO​

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


The cope will really hit them hard over next few months
 
Logistics ?

Transport between the countries. They don't have shared land borders and sea connections can also relatively easy be cut off. If they want to do joint military operations. This is the biggest hurdle.

We need geographical continuity that’s where Iraq and Iran are vital ? We need them to join.

Can Iran be trusted?
 
Just went through your post and there are so many wrong claims in it that I don't have the time or energy to educate you on the basics, a few examples should suffice.....

Right....Not because you can't answer the meat of the post.... ;)

The Aga Khan was the permanent president of the League from March 1908 to November 1913, five and a half years, your "1 year in 1909" confuses the rotating session chairs with the party presidency, two different offices.....

The "rotating session chairs" were the presidents actually in charge of "leading" not the life time honorary position. There wasn't much to lead, as I've explained above, until Jinnah retook the exact same position for the 5th time in 37.

You mixed up the two Rajas of Mahmudabad while lecturing me on remembering names...... the father Mohammad Ali Mohammad Khan was the early financier and sits in the League's own session president list for 1918, the son Amir Ahmad, your "born 8 years later", bankrolled the 1937 to 47 phase.....

Believe you mentioned something about him being a treasurer, which his father was not.

"Opposed partition until 1940" is an anachronism...... partition only became League policy with the Lahore Resolution in March 1940, there was nothing to support before that.....

No it's not. Partition was proposed decades before with its proponents both within and without the League. Allama Iqbal did not see that khwab two years after his death. Chaudhary Rehmat Ali presented the name in 1933.

And "the clerical establishment was in self exile with no presence at all", the JUH was founded in 1919 and ran the Khilafat Movement...... the largest ulema led mass mobilization in Indian Muslim history.....

Correct me if I'm wrong but is not 1919 preceded by 1906 when "The "general Islam" of the ML was a lay identity built against the clerical establishment"? Not that it was built in 1906, as I have explained above.

JUH, as in Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind? That was a religious council. Just because my dentist attends a rally to lower the cost of floss doesn't make him the dental establishment in need to be built against by political parties. And the movement was ran across the board, not by JUH.

Now let's keep it simple and brief..... Do you actually deny that almost the entire organized Sunni religious establishment, Madani's Deoband, the Ahrar, Maududi, opposed Jinnah and his Pakistan movement tooth and nail? Yes or no....

'Begging the question'? Let's make it more simple. Do you claim that the entire organized Shia religious "establishment" supported Jinnah and his Pakistan tooth and nail? Yes or no.

That wasn't even disguised that well. Anyway, I will end this OT at this mark, unless you can provide rebuttals to my actual arguments and not just ignoratio elenchi.

Both of you are indulging yourselves in meaningless D measuring contest...
Men from minority sects were giants and the rest were piggies... that's the bottom lines...if pedantry tickles the cockles of your heart then feel free to continue.

I'm sorry, is there an argument disguised in this self-placating rhetoric? All were piggies. There were only two giants whose views on idiotic sectarian rhetoric are very well published.
 
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Another crude understanding of the reality! The best part: 99.9% of them think and act alike! It'd make the job so easy for the masterminds behind the Misak-i Mekka....

THE TURKEY ANGLE IN THE MECCA PACT / LT GEN PR SHANKAR​

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Egypt has a balanced relationship between Saudia and UAE, this is sisi backup if the situation goes downhill. Some say he is Israeli puppet and some say Usa puppet, and now people saying UAE puppet. Egypt also considers itself a great historical power so they must have their own interests in the region.
We aren't great historical power anymore , we lost being big historical power probably since 1840 when we conquered turkey then russia and england attacked us back and forced us to reduce the army etc etc etc then we got conquered by england for probably 70 years , since then we forgot how to be big and powerful.

we are just a shadow of the past.

ad sisi can be a puppet to any country that pays him money , can by israeli puppet, saudi puppet, uae puppet etc.
 
Right....Not because you can't answer the meat of the post.... ;)



The "rotating session chairs" were the presidents actually in charge of "leading" not the life time honorary position. There wasn't much to lead, as I've explained above, until Jinnah retook the exact same position for the 5th time in 37.



Believe you mentioned something about him being a treasurer, which his father was not.



No it's not. Partition was proposed decades before with its proponents both within and without the League. Allama Iqbal did not see that khwab two years after his death. Chaudhary Rehmat Ali presented the name in 1933.



Correct me if I'm wrong but is not 1919 preceded by 1906 when "The "general Islam" of the ML was a lay identity built against the clerical establishment"? Not that it was built in 1906, as I have explained above.

JUH, as in Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind? That was a religious council. Just because my dentist attends a rally to lower the cost of floss doesn't make him the dental establishment in need to be built against by political parties. And the movement was ran across the board, not by JUH.



'Begging the question'? Let's make it more simple. Do you claim that the entire organized Shia religious "establishment" supported Jinnah and his Pakistan tooth and nail? Yes or no.

That wasn't even disguised that well. Anyway, I will end this OT at this mark, unless you can provide rebuttals to my actual arguments and not just ignoratio elenchi.



I'm sorry, is there an argument disguised in this self-placating rhetoric? All were piggies. There were only two giants whose views on idiotic sectarian rhetoric are very well published.


Went through all 5 of your points, again, none, not even a single one, survives scrutiny.....


1) The League's own records list exactly 2 men in the party presidency, Jinnah 1934 to 47 and the Aga Khan 1908 to 13...... The Quaid's office WAS the permanent presidency, not a session chair..... So pick one, either the office was real and the Ismaili Imam led the League for five and a half years, or it was fluff and Jinnah led nothing for 1934 to 1947...... Take your time..... Meanwhile Wazir Hasan the Shia secretary running the machinery 1912 to 19, Ameer Ali's London League, Adamjee 1907, Ali Imam 1908, all quietly dropped. Four exhibits, zero answers.....

2)The son WAS the National Treasurer of the AIML...... Father the early financier and 1918 session president, son the treasurer. "At its head and its treasury" stands literally..... Your birthday arithmetic fails here.....

3)"Proponents within and without the League", yes, proponents, not policy........ Policy means resolutions, that came March 1940..... By your own standard the entire League including Jinnah "opposed partition until 1940"..... Careful with that one.....

4)Cute analogy, but dental councils don't found themselves as political bodies, ally with a party for 25 years, write political treatises and contest general elections....... And the clerics you say didn't exist had already declared Sir Syed a "nechari kafir" in the 1880s, your beloved Aligarh's founder, excommunicated by the establishment that "had no presence"....

5)Your yes or no, No ..... the Shia Political Conference also opposed the League, thanks for asking, it completes my point.......... a sect blind lay Islam opposed by the clerics of BOTH sects and beating them both at the polls..... I answered yours in one word, mine is still pending after two posts.....



Per @Musings note, that's my last OT post here........ Want more, open a dedicated thread and tag me, I'll oblige.....
 
We aren't great historical power anymore , we lost being big historical power probably since 1840 when we conquered turkey then russia and england attacked us back and forced us to reduce the army etc etc etc then we got conquered by england for probably 70 years , since then we forgot how to be big and powerful.

we are just a shadow of the past.

ad sisi can be a puppet to any country that pays him money , can by israeli puppet, saudi puppet, uae puppet etc.


You can ALWAYS become powerful again provided you collecting make many sacrifices and do what is required to NO MATTER the cost.
 

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