Litmus Test for India’s Democracy

[vsdoc]

Here are parts of reply I gave a while back to close friend elsewhere, sorry for the copy paste messiness in parts:



@Joe Shearer

Pulwama and rally around the flag saved them in '19. It was serious non biological stuff, pardon the finger in sanghi anus dig. Rest I largely agree with you. Rahul has served a tough internship. The world's most exacting. His time will come. He is still in his early 50's. What huge mistake unknowingly or knowingly the Sangh and Modi cabal did was make Indian politics a personality cult. Now hardcore Sanghis grudgingly admit (albeit in one on one enclaves) that after Modi the only other personality of pan national acceptance is Rahul.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Nilgiri]

Pulwama and rally around the flag saved them in '19. It was serious non biological stuff, pardon the finger in sanghi anus dig. Rest I largely agree with you. Rahul has served a tough internship. The world's most exacting. His time will come. He is still in his early 50's. What huge mistake unknowingly or knowingly the Sangh and Modi cabal did was make Indian politics a personality cult. Now hardcore Sanghis grudgingly admit (albeit in one on one enclaves) that after Modi the only other personality of pan national acceptance is Rahul.

Cheers, Doc

To some degree for sure, still its no excuse for opposition unable to create a clear A vs B situation (regd the FPTP mechanism at hand) given clear threat of what had happened in 2014.

Look at what happened in France today for example. This is kind of stuff that many forces simply delay in realisation all around in various democratic systems (along with various nervous system feedback at various echelons to begin with that precipitate whatever insularity found in top rungs of a political party to get whatever ego drama doing this). In france's case, there is simple obstinacy in left and centre and moderate right for long while (to listen to genuine mass migration concerns from growing french citizenry) to begin with.....but they are still aware of the threat the right wing poses as whole to consolidate (like they just did to make the full on A vs B in FPTP, with a round 2 unavailable in India) to buy some more time to address/defuse it now (rather than further insularity and attempted conflation away from it), lets see.

I mean pulwarma etc, still didnt push BJP vote to much beyond 40% in large parts of UP....so it means 60% was essentially squandered by lot of SP vs INC vs BSP etc in so many areas (ofc BSP still doesnt understand the reality and opted out this time, but there was SP+INC this time that produced what we got in 2024, which would have been instructive to do in 2019 itself). At some point you have to see bigger picture if you care about country instead of your own political personalities and fortune making.

i.e It simply didn't rankle them enough to put their differences aside an. We can maybe hope thats changed now in enough measure (given even more damage BJP vindictivaley went out of its way to do against whichever non-BJP entity and also further institutional ursurping and degradation pressing more alarm bells etc).

Rahul is ok guy and all (last few years he definitely has changed a lot since Rahul I saw in 2014 etc), but there need to be further deep look at India's society and nervous system communication and network by opposition parties....how to develop competence and messaging at same time, knowing Indian people always have BJP waiting there too to have their bite at everything always....if any retribution or other such angst dynamic resurfaces by INC et al sitting too comfy or simply doing protracted bad policy again.

The social morass of India is an immense unforgiving ocean....you never know what memory or issue its going to harness at scale that any demagogue/opportunist can make hay with if you yourself dont rise above the fray and do best possible transparent job on things (and why things like secularism are absolutely ESSENTIAL to having the transparency/lightness regd what statism the republic can afford to have).

TN is immensely bad to begin with (its too long to get into finer details why)....and then it goes from bad to worse to extremely worse in north....TN somehow made to look good all in all in the end, given state of North India....thats horrible to muse on too long.

INC more than any other has the history to learn and apply itself to again.....its not like Nehru-Shastri-Kamaraj era is entirely bygone era to be forgotten. But the silly deckchair re-arrangement and orchestra playing attitude (relative to ship and iceberg threat and result) has to fully go away as possible.... political over-egos can form and be afforded/inflicted to whatever degree population wants when that populations 80% base has developed to sufficient degree. Till then INC has to be as ego-free as possible, work with reality its got (produce results when it has bite at apple at any level).... and let BJP blowhard ego do its job to implode itself given Indian voter temperament.

@Joe Shearer

 

[Joe Shearer]

To some degree for sure, still its no excuse for opposition unable to create a clear A vs B situation (regd the FPTP mechanism at hand) given clear threat of what had happened in 2014.

Look at what happened in France today for example. This is kind of stuff that many forces simply delay in realisation all around in various democratic systems (along with various nervous system feedback at various echelons to begin with that precipitate whatever insularity found in top rungs of a political party to get whatever ego drama doing this). In france's case, there is simple obstinacy in left and centre and moderate right for long while (to listen to genuine mass migration concerns from growing french citizenry) to begin with.....but they are still aware of the threat the right wing poses as whole to consolidate (like they just did to make the full on A vs B in FPTP, with a round 2 unavailable in India) to buy some more time to address/defuse it now (rather than further insularity and attempted conflation away from it), lets see.

I mean pulwarma etc, still didnt push BJP vote to much beyond 40% in large parts of UP....so it means 60% was essentially squandered by lot of SP vs INC vs BSP etc in so many areas (ofc BSP still doesnt understand the reality and opted out this time, but there was SP+INC this time that produced what we got in 2024, which would have been instructive to do in 2019 itself). At some point you have to see bigger picture if you care about country instead of your own political personalities and fortune making.

i.e It simply didn't rankle them enough to put their differences aside an. We can maybe hope thats changed now in enough measure (given even more damage BJP vindictivaley went out of its way to do against whichever non-BJP entity and also further institutional ursurping and degradation pressing more alarm bells etc).

Rahul is ok guy and all (last few years he definitely has changed a lot since Rahul I saw in 2014 etc), but there need to be further deep look at India's society and nervous system communication and network by opposition parties....how to develop competence and messaging at same time, knowing Indian people always have BJP waiting there too to have their bite at everything always....if any retribution or other such angst dynamic resurfaces by INC et al sitting too comfy or simply doing protracted bad policy again.

The social morass of India is an immense unforgiving ocean....you never know what memory or issue its going to harness at scale that any demagogue/opportunist can make hay with if you yourself dont rise above the fray and do best possible transparent job on things (and why things like secularism are absolutely ESSENTIAL to having the transparency/lightness regd what statism the republic can afford to have).

TN is immensely bad to begin with (its too long to get into finer details why)....and then it goes from bad to worse to extremely worse in north....TN somehow made to look good all in all in the end, given state of North India....thats horrible to muse on too long.

INC more than any other has the history to learn and apply itself to again.....its not like Nehru-Shastri-Kamaraj era is entirely bygone era to be forgotten. But the silly deckchair re-arrangement and orchestra playing attitude (relative to ship and iceberg threat and result) has to fully go away as possible.... political over-egos can form and be afforded/inflicted to whatever degree population wants when that populations 80% base has developed to sufficient degree. Till then INC has to be as ego-free as possible, work with reality its got (produce results when it has bite at apple at any level).... and let BJP blowhard ego do its job to implode itself given Indian voter temperament.

@Joe Shearer

That is a good summary, and can be reduced to the following:

1. The BJP uses gimmicks, but these get them a marginal frothy overcast to their essential attractiveness to the electorate, whether that is a tightly-focussed electorate or a reasonably spread out one;
2. A second component in their campaign has backfired; the personality cult depends critically on the credibility of a personality. While that has been eroded in the case of Modi, and his more rancid as well as his grotesque remarks have gone on record. On the other hand, Rahul Gandhi has improved sharply since his utterly juvenile hugs and winks style of even ten years ago. He also seems to be improving his oratory and delivery, though it is still not a winning device;
3. The left and centre have not knit together a coherent and well-planned programme that will simultaneously distinguish their offering and cut into the Sangh Parivar offering. This may be because they have not (on the positive side) put effort behind the suggested better governance and administration that they might offer, and also not (on the negative side) cast such a message in such a way as to suggest the failure of the Sangh Parivar in these specific aspects, as well as underlining the toxic nature of their appeal, and the foundation of such an appeal on thoroughly unsound assumptions and opinions masquerading as facts.
4. Such a well-knit programme will have to solve the very difficult issues posed by the overwhelming complexity of the Indian population. Quite clearly, the Sangh Parivar's policy of 'One size fits all' has not worked - not only not worked, but has put up the backs of the citizens of the East and the South, even disastrously large tracts of the north excluding the 'jhatka' crowd from UP. The Central Indian belt is a new factor in Indian politics, and why the Gujarati, MP, and Chhatisgarh electorate is so stuck in a time-warp.

In the terse summation of K. Kamaraj Nadar, to flatter @Nilgiri a bit,

'Parkalam'.

 

[Skukuza]

So you agree you got shafted mainly by Hindus.

Good. That's a promising start to frank open dialogue.

Whats to explain.

A child's DNA us half father half mother.

Rahul's mother is 100% catholic Christian.

Rahul's father is 50% Hindu 50% Parsi.

Rahul is thus by blood 25% Hindu 25% Parsi 50% Christian.

By faith he is 100% Hindu because like us, Hindus too follow patrilineal lineage.

Rajiv never had a Navjote, so he cannot be Zoroastrian, inspite if his dad being one. The Hindu pheras mean little. There was a Parsi wedding as well between Feroze and Indira.

If Rajiv never had a Navjote, then he cannot make Rahul have a Navjote.

So regardless of whether Rajiv was Hindu (definitely not Parsi) or not, Rahul is surely not a Parsi.

Now it is left to you and the Christians ro decide his ownership. We just love him for his little Parsi blood and his heart and his vision of India.

We have rules. Strict ones. About bloodlines and wombs. We are not liberal hippies.

Cheers, Doc

I really don't know what you are talking about or what this thread is about but that bloodline stuff you mentioned is eerie man

 

[vsdoc]

I really don't know what you are talking about or what this thread is about but that bloodline stuff you mentioned is eerie man

Why does bloodline stuff eeriefy you ?

BLOOD

FAITH

SOIL

What are we without even one of these three?

Mongrels.

Souls on shaft or bid.

Displaced refugees.

 

[Skukuza]

Why does bloodline stuff eeriefy you ?

BLOOD

FAITH

SOIL

What are we without even one of these three?

Mongrels.

Souls on bidder

Displaced refugees.

You are a minority in a sea of majority. I did a bit of google research and your people seem to be descendants of a tribe which took refuge in India about a thousand year ago. My people took refuge in South Africa hundreds of years ago. We initially suppressed and ruled the majority by force but decided to give in an assimilate and live with the majority under a democratic dispensation. As mentioned, I don't have the slightest understanding of Indian politics save that it is the world's largest democracy. Having said so, we are a respected constitutional democracy. The reason why democracy works here is because we work with the majority, listen to their concerns and vice versa and respect their choice of government even if it is not to our satisfaction. When we criticise the government chosen by the majority, we do so due to their economic policies and perceived corruption and not due to their manifesto policies. It worked for us as shown in our recent election. The majority realised that they were being hoodwinked by their so called liberators and the tide turned.


Now imagine if we stood by our staunch Roman Dutch cultural characteristics which we refused to change and persisted that the majority were an inferior race whom God prescribed that we rule. There would have been carnage. Point being that we took OUR perception of blood, faith and ownership of soil and shoved it aside to consider what exactly were the concerns of the majority. We worked with the majority and in turn we produced a magic democracy after 30 years of attaining freedom from a suppressive State created by my ancestors.

The reason why I commented on your post and regarded it as "eerie" is due to the outdated tribal conception which you steadfastly seem to hold onto in a sea of democracy

 

[vsdoc]

You are a minority in a sea of majority. I did a bit of google research and your people seem to be descendants of a tribe which took refuge in India about a thousand year ago. My people took refuge in South Africa hundreds of years ago. We initially suppressed and ruled the majority by force but decided to give in an assimilate and live with the majority under a democratic dispensation. As mentioned, I don't have the slightest understanding of Indian politics save that it is the world's largest democracy. Having said so, we are a respected constitutional democracy. The reason why democracy works here is because we work with the majority, listen to their concerns and vice versa and respect their choice of government even if it is not to our satisfaction. When we criticise the government chosen by the majority, we do so due to their economic policies and perceived corruption and not due to their manifesto policies. It worked for us as shown in our recent election. The majority realised that they were being hoodwinked by their so called liberators and the tide turned.


Now imagine if we stood by our staunch Roman Dutch cultural characteristics which we refused to change and persisted that the majority were an inferior race whom God prescribed that we rule. There would have been carnage. Point being that we took OUR perception of blood, faith and ownership of soil and shoved it aside to consider what exactly were the concerns of the majority. We worked with the majority and in turn we produced a magic democracy after 30 years of attaining freedom from a suppressive State created by my ancestors.

The reason why I commented on your post and regarded it as "eerie" is due to the outdated tribal conception which you steadfastly seem to hold onto in a sea of democracy

Bro, you are a Boer. South Africa was never your ancestral soil. You were occupiers who commercially and militarily subjugated the natives and then became settlers, and finally rulers.

How are you drawing any linkage with me and my people? I am telling you what our ancient Aryan concepts of blood purity and faith and soil are. They are ours. We impose them on no one.

And where does democracy come in? We are democratic patriotic Indians.

I think you are confused.

And I was in Cape Town earlier this year for a conference (actually, race). 10 days. I know exactly how hunky dory things are between the whites and blacks there. The water front is still very much the protected enclave of the whites no? How many blacks are allowed there? Beautiful city btw.