:: OMG - The Indian Air Force is coming ::

[Cookie Monster]

china did simulation war against USA - was those wet dreams?

Does the whataboutism make my points invalid? If not…please answer objectively.

If China’s simulation pains u so much…let’s discuss it objectively on its own thread. I’m focusing more on here…bcuz I often read up and am more aware of military capabilities, strengths, equipment, etc of Pakistan/India…than that of other nations comparatively.

 

[Cipher212]

The Mirage 2000 has a history of successfully shooot down F-16 fighter in combat. Moreover, if I’m not mistaken, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) does not possess the complete fleet of Block 52 F-16s.

On another note, I didn’t watch the simulation , but bombing along borders tends to be a relatively straightforward task. Neither the PAF nor the Indian Air Force (IAF) have been able and ability to prevent one another’s operations in such scenarios.

The dynamics of warfare have significantly evolved since the 1960s and 1970s. Success now depends on a multitude of factors, with careful planning and effective execution being critical to achieving superiority.

And F-86 has history of shooting down a MiG-21. Shall we bring ours back from retirement then based on this logic?

 

[Broghil]

It is assumed that in heightened tensions PAF aircrafts would be parked in a neat line on main Sargodha airbase.

 

[Yasser76]

No, but that is the difference, i do not pretend to understand, and you do. I can only assume the IAF knows what it needs, if not maybe it is as incompetent as many think.
Thank you for acknowledging. I hope you first understand the situation thoroughly before making claims about whether the IAF is in trouble and on what basis its requirements are defined for 42 suardern.

Difference is with every passing year PAF Mirage/F-7 fleet is getting smaller and smaller being replaced. Only one F-7PG Frontline unit left, same cannot be said of IAF....

Even the MiG-21 is still part of the IAF, though only around 50 remain, as they are gradually being phased out.

As for the Jaguar, it isn’t going anywhere anytime soon, as India doesn’t have dedicated bombers. Sometimes, such fighters are needed to maintain fleet numbers. For example, the Chinese Air Force still operates aircrafts like the J-7 and J-8 etc.

I directly qouted the IAF CAS, if he is worried and you are not that sums up the extent of thus debate and your severe lack of knowledge or indeed just opinion masqarading as knowledge.

Wrong again, J-7/J-8 play little to no role in PLAAF frontline, likewise F-7PG is on air policing duty near Afghan border.

MIG-21s and Jaguars are very much IAF frontline as you just stated. 2019 had MIG-21s go upagainst AMRAAM enabled F-16s. That situation has not changed radically, only 36 extra Rafales

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

I directly qouted the IAF CAS, if he is worried and you are not that sums up the extent of thus debate and your severe lack of knowledge or indeed just opinion masqarading as knowledge.

Wrong again, J-7/J-8 play little to no role in PLAAF frontline, likewise F-7PG is on air policing duty near Afghan border.

MIG-21s and Jaguars are very much IAF frontline as you just stated. 2019 had MIG-21s go upagainst AMRAAM enabled F-16s. That situation has not changed radically, only 36 extra Rafales

We have legitimate concerns about the growing capabilities of the Chinese Air Force—there's no hiding that. It's a reality we must address with a clear strategy.

As mentioned earlier, we need a larger fleet of 4.5-generation fighter aircraft to effectively counter their advancements. These aircraft are essential for protecting our airspace, particularly in strategically important and contested areas. Their versatility, advanced systems, and cost-effectiveness make them highly suitable for maintaining a robust defense.

At the same time, investing in new-generation fighter planes equipped with the latest technologies is equally critical. These cutting-edge platforms will not only provide a qualitative edge over potential adversaries but also ensure we are prepared for future challenges in modern warfare.

In summary, a balanced combination of upgraded 4.5-generation fighters and state-of-the-art next-gen aircraft will be crucial for safeguarding our skies and maintaining operational superiority.

Previously, mentioned the requirement for 42 squadrons in the context of preparing for a potential two-front war, which is sometimes being referred concerns by IAF

 

[Yasser76]

When China conducted simulation wars against the USA, were those merely “wet dreams”? Please understand the fundamentals of simulation war games; no one claim that it will get get 100% success.

As for the extensive use of the Su family (coped J version)by China and heavy aircraft like the F-15 by other air forces—do you know why these aircraft are so widely utilized?

The Su-30MKI, once upgraded with an AESA radar and the Astra missile with a range of 160+ km, will address most of the challenges faced today. The Su-30MKI is a versatile and highly capable multirole fighter, and its relevance in the Indian Air Force (IAF) is expected to remain significant even beyond 2050.

Similarly, at present, I don’t see the PAF having any advantage over the IAF in terms of fighter planes. The only area where the PAF holds an edge is with its AWACS fleet.

Whole argument falls down on teh words "once upgraded" here. Upgrade is 10 years away in HAL estimates, so that means 15 years away in the real world.


MKI in its current state is not fit to take on AESA fighters or the PL-15, it is at the mercy of JF-17Cs.

 

[Yasser76]

he wrorries about chinese airforce ---- nothing to hide about it.. we have concern about it

No, he specifcally mentioned Pakistan too. For an Indian you do not seem to up to speed on the IAF

 

[OakTree23]

Serious question for the Pakistani posters on this thread, why engage with the Indians here? They’ll change their stripes when cornered with facts. Every one of them is a proud Hindu until he starts losing an argument and will turn into an atheist.

Leave them be. I’m hoping the mods start banning them if they post misinformation.

 

[iblini]

When China conducted simulation wars against the USA, were those merely “wet dreams”

Ofc they were wet dreams because those you see are definitely fan's work, you are never going to see a PLAAF official simulation.

The only area where the PAF holds an edge is with its AWACS fleet.

This situation alone is quiet pathetic for India.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

No, he specifcally mentioned Pakistan too. For an Indian you do not seem to up to speed on the IAF

its a simulaion sir.... i can't make you understand i belive....

The IAF’s concerns can be divided into two major areas:

1. 42 Squadrons for Two-Front War Preparedness
This is the long-term strategic requirement to ensure the IAF is adequately prepared to handle threats on two fronts simultaneously—from both Pakistan and China.

2 . Countering the Rapid Growth of Chinese Air Power

The Chinese Air Force is expanding rapidly, both in terms of quantity and technology, posing a serious challenge. Their deployment of advanced platforms like the J-20 stealth fighter, along with sophisticated UAVs and long-range missiles, demands that India bolster its air defense capabilities.

To secure India's skies, the IAF urgently needs a good number of 4.5-generation fighters along with the Su-30MKI, Rafale, and Tejas, which should be highly capable of dominating contested airspace and providing tactical superiority.
These two concerns are distinct but interrelated—one focuses on overall readiness for a large-scale conflict, while the other addresses the immediate need for technological and numerical parity against a rapidly modernizing adversary like China.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

This situation alone is quiet pathetic for India.

Agreed

 

[Ak01]

The overall summary is that he claimed the IAF is currently in a mess.

My question was: from what perspective was he making this claim? He was referring to the need for 42 squadrons.

So, I asked: why does the IAF need 42 squadrons? What is their purpose, and why are they required?
--------------------------
Frankly, when I look at the IAF operating with 30 squadrons, I’m not overly concerned. The real challenge would arise only in the event of a two-front war—and I don’t believe that’s happening anytime soon.

MMRCA
As you mentioned, India needs to finalise the MMRCA deal. For now, we require 4.5-generation fighter planes in the medium category as 5th-generation planes are gradually being inducted by chinese force.

I strongly believe that most fighter pilots in the world would be confident flying 4.5-generation fighters in controlled environments, even against 5th-generation planes. To counter China’s 5th- or 4th-generation aircraft and to defend our skies, India needs at least 100 fighter planes under the MMRCA program.... most liekly rafale will be ordered.

But add to that: IN is getting 24 Rafale M fighter planes between.
---------------------------
The MMRCA should ideally be the last imported fighter program—except if an offer for the F-35 comes along. As I’ve followed, the Indian government is not keen on importing fighters anymore, delays in local aircraft production and, in turn, challenges for the IAF.

That said, if HAL begins delivering the Tejas Mk1A by the end of this year, it will primarily serve in an interceptor role. and approximately 100 fighters will be produced.

The HAL Tejas Mk2 will be a critical project as it is set to replace multiple aging fighters and will likely be produced in large numbers, starting around 2028-29.

As for the AMCA, it is expected to be operational by 2035.
....................

In my personal opinion, the IAF should finalize a deal for 120 Rafales or Boeing F-15EX Eagle II with localized production. Producing these alongside the HAL Tejas Mk1A and ensuring deliveries are completed by 2029-30 would be an ideal scenario for the IAF.

From 2029 onwards, the focus could shift to acquiring and inducting the HAL Tejas Mk2, which would replace older fleets and strengthen numbers.

Meanwhile, if an opportunity arises to procure 36 F-35s from the USA, it would further enhance capabilities and bolster the IAF’s strategic edge.

In terms of the IAF being a mess, we can really only refer to whats available, the biggest issue facing the IAF seems to be red tape and bureaucracy. The other issue that is currently faced is a pilot shortage. However, this has been a longstanding issue, but nothing has been sufficient to correct it as of yet, so it has continued to grow.

The issue is they cannot seem to train enough pilots to counter wastage and also the required demand. Unless something is done to address this, it will continue to grow and be a significant issue. Perhaps this links into the issue of the age of the training fleet, perhaps thats why they cannot keep up with the demand of pilots. Who knows- the CAG report did not specifically outline the reasons for the shortage and the inability of the IAF to address them.

The current shortage is of 600 pilots, which, if we're being frank, is not a small amount. Generally, you'll have 1.5 pilots per aircraft, sometimes two. We will double that for twin seaters. That is a real issue. Moreso than squadron numbers, because, well, without the pilots, there wont be the squadron.

In terms of your belief, i cant say much about that, of course, thats how you feel, i dont have anything to counter that.

To be frank, its unrealistic. If you wanted 120 rafales, by 2030, the deal should have been signed 5 years ago.

Lets, for arguments sake say that tomorrow the rafale deal was finalised, it would take 2/3 years atleast to get the facilities built, equipment, jigs, contracts etc all in place to start production. Now lets assume this new line is producing 20 aircraft per year, delivery schedules are back in the mid 2030's. You're still stuck.

The problem returns back to that red tape. India is getting aircraft it needed yesterday, tomorrow. In the mid 2030's were in the era of NGADs and widespread FGFA adoption. Yes, 4th gen aircraft will be here to stay in a supportive role, but India will then face a repeat of this situation again.
While i have high hopes for AMCA, the issue, as outlined by CAS is still present, there is too much in the way of a straightforward, timely and smooth induction. I dont see AMCA being inducted until the late 2030's-mid 2040's realistically, so in a decade, India will once again face this situation of what do we induct NOW to meet the need of yesterday, yet it will face the issue of delivery delays, red tape etc again, having to order airframes it needed yesterday, today again.

In terms of F-35 and Tejas, im sure we will get some deliveries, but i see tejas as the sacrificial lamb. It will continue to stumble at the hands of babus and know it all uncles, but its sacrifices will likely make AMCA less turbulent than it could have been.

F-35 wont happen, that im sure of, even then, im not sure the appetite in India for the F35 exists anyway.

 

[harpy1]

Flight Global separates the single-seat and dual-seat numbers:

Here are the single-seat numbers (which you referenced)...

View attachment 96732

Here are the dual-seat numbers (from the same source)...View attachment 96733

So, according to the source you referenced, the PAF has:

75 F-16s
146 JF-17s
18 J-10CEs (with 7 more on order)
179 Mirage III/5s

Still heck alot of vintage mirages 170 wow .. Jesus man NATO phased them out four decades ago

 

[harpy1]

In terms of the IAF being a mess, we can really only refer to whats available, the biggest issue facing the IAF seems to be red tape and bureaucracy. The other issue that is currently faced is a pilot shortage. However, this has been a longstanding issue, but nothing has been sufficient to correct it as of yet, so it has continued to grow.

The issue is they cannot seem to train enough pilots to counter wastage and also the required demand. Unless something is done to address this, it will continue to grow and be a significant issue. Perhaps this links into the issue of the age of the training fleet, perhaps thats why they cannot keep up with the demand of pilots. Who knows- the CAG report did not specifically outline the reasons for the shortage and the inability of the IAF to address them.

The current shortage is of 600 pilots, which, if we're being frank, is not a small amount. Generally, you'll have 1.5 pilots per aircraft, sometimes two. We will double that for twin seaters. That is a real issue. Moreso than squadron numbers, because, well, without the pilots, there wont be the squadron.

In terms of your belief, i cant say much about that, of course, thats how you feel, i dont have anything to counter that.

To be frank, its unrealistic. If you wanted 120 rafales, by 2030, the deal should have been signed 5 years ago.

Lets, for arguments sake say that tomorrow the rafale deal was finalised, it would take 2/3 years atleast to get the facilities built, equipment, jigs, contracts etc all in place to start production. Now lets assume this new line is producing 20 aircraft per year, delivery schedules are back in the mid 2030's. You're still stuck.

The problem returns back to that red tape. India is getting aircraft it needed yesterday, tomorrow. In the mid 2030's were in the era of NGADs and widespread FGFA adoption. Yes, 4th gen aircraft will be here to stay in a supportive role, but India will then face a repeat of this situation again.
While i have high hopes for AMCA, the issue, as outlined by CAS is still present, there is too much in the way of a straightforward, timely and smooth induction. I dont see AMCA being inducted until the late 2030's-mid 2040's realistically, so in a decade, India will once again face this situation of what do we induct NOW to meet the need of yesterday, yet it will face the issue of delivery delays, red tape etc again, having to order airframes it needed yesterday, today again.

In terms of F-35 and Tejas, im sure we will get some deliveries, but i see tejas as the sacrificial lamb. It will continue to stumble at the hands of babus and know it all uncles, but its sacrifices will likely make AMCA less turbulent than it could have been.

F-35 wont happen, that im sure of, even then, im not sure the appetite in India for the F35 exists anyway.

If India wanted the F35 the USA would definitely supply this guranteed

Quad member
Trump massive India centric

The issue is the Indian military are concerned about
Sanctions
USA intrusion
Usage limitations
Effect on Amca long term.
Losing identity and russian connection.

Look at the USA engines fiasco

But something has to give

 

[Trailer23]

The Mirage 2000 has a history of successfully shooot down F-16 fighter in combat.

Really...

Where exactly did this "successful shooot down of F-16 Fighter in combat" take place?

Hellenic Air Force vs. Turkish Air Force

Before Swift Retort ISI used to be this type of THE VILLAIN for Indian Nation.

PAF must feel proud on this ....

I hope so, otherwise the Red-Nose Viper (from the Film: Fighter) would have gone in vain...

​

You must ask the ISI to give us a Reason , A second Pulwama would fulfill all our desires

Last time it all ended very soon

How naive you to truly believe that Pakistan or its ISI had anything to do with that incident. Your BSF Officers humiliated a youngster by tying him up to their 4x4 & drove him around. What were those soldiers expecting in return? Cookies'n'Cream.

The kid just returned the favor.

Yes, I will agree that it ended too soon.

- Not being able to hit your target(s), but that was expected if you were gonna lob from inside your own turf.
- Losing 2 Jets
- Losing 1 Search & Rescue (with 7 Jawans)
- 1 PoW
- And PAF actually came into Indian Air Space & showed how its down*.

*Ehhh, we have footage. Have you got anything from your strike on the so-called 'Terrorist Camp'? No. Didn't think so...

If I remember correctly, Brahmos was Tested by India in Mian Channu

Congradulations. You got some poor chap Court Martialed for incompetence. I suppose thats your speed, after all, wasn't it incompetence by a Battery Commander that led to the demise of those 7 jawans from SAR in 2019. [Aik say bar kay aik]

You returned Abhinandan

I highly recommend that YOU familiarize your self with the: Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War

[Chai pilla kay...marum-patti kar di aur aik sasta sa Blue Jacket pehna kay farig kar deya]

Heard you rewarded him for getting shot down... Cool.

Those Crows Led you to Close your Airspace for 5 Months

Buddyboy, that closure of Airspace afftected your Airlines more than Pakistans'.

Go check how many Departures/Arrivals you have West of India - over Pakistan in 24hrs.

Now go check how many we have East.

Hell, at one point your Ministery of External Affairs sent a request for Modi's plane to fly over Pakistan -which was denied.

You got friends in Air India, indigo, SpiceJet, (then) Vistara etc. Ask them how much it was costing them daily JetA1 Fuel + Time flying around Pakistan?

But Pulwama gave him a life line

Awww gee, what a coincidence

If I had a paisa everytime an Indian politician used Pakistan for his/her Political gain..., i'd have Private Jet on 24hrs Standby.

February is Coming

Let us PRAY for a New Conflict

Careful what you wish for. We don't want you to go into hidding based on the outcome (again).

This GHOST of February 2019 is a Nuisance, it just doesn't go away

Funny, coming from a Nation that loves brining up 73,000 at every chance they get*.

*Although, that figure & image appears to be vanishing - literally.

@Pakistan Space Agency

It's already been nearly 6-years since Hindustan last received a beating from Pakistan

And within 6 months of that beating, India "annexed" Kashmir and your beloved PM was unable to do anything about it.

Oh Wow - since you couldn't bring your A-Game to a defense-related conversation, you thought you'd play the Political Card.

Did you grow an extra inch on that?

Yeah, you "annexed" it. So what? That Minister of Defence (who looks like Skeletor) and pretty much every Service Head has made statements about re-taking Azad Kashmir. How's that working out for ya'll (so far)?

Frankly, when I look at the IAF operating with 30 squadrons, I’m not overly concerned. The real challenge would arise only in the event of a two-front war—and I don’t believe that’s happening anytime soon.

I'll be sure to tag you a few vidos - from your own Defence Analyst and then you be the judge if you outta be "overly concerned".

Still heck alot of vintage mirages 170 wow .. Jesus man NATO phased them out four decades ago

Yeah, but they until a few years back; they were able to get the job done - or did you not see the footage.

Either way, those Vintage Mirages are getting phased out pretty fast & replaced by both JF-17's & J-10. So, i'd say we're doing pretty good.