PA MLRS, Self Propelled and towed artillery [BM-11, Fatah-I GMLRS, Fatah-II] - News, Updates & Discussions

[Lion]

View attachment 136088
From an Indian officer at Indonesian Air Force seminar on India-Pakistan clash

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None of what was presented in this brief was accurate or should be taken seriously. The same brief was claiming Pakistan lost F16s and 90% of its AWACS capabilities. If you want to take the Indian losses from it as fact then you have to take the Pakistani ones as fact too. The truth is that this brief was just taken from social media information by a junior Indian officer making a presentation in a completely unrelated setting.

 

[sutton9999]

None of what was presented in this brief was accurate or should be taken seriously. The same brief was claiming Pakistan lost F16s and 90% of its AWACS capabilities. If you want to take the Indian losses from it as fact then you have to take the Pakistani ones as fact too. The truth is that this brief was just taken from social media information by a junior Indian officer making a presentation in a completely unrelated setting.

Pakistan part yes, take from Indian media.

But for the Indian part, there was no claim of 2 S400 launchers damaged prior. The claim was one S400 radar from the PAF brief.

An officer (he is old, not junior) can ask for insider info, rather than taking the media claim as Indian's loss. And he does not mark the Indian part as sourced from media.

 

[Lion]

Pakistan part yes, take from Indian media.

But for the Indian part, there was no claim of 2 S400 launchers damaged prior. The claim was one S400 radar from the PAF brief.

An officer (he is old, not junior) can ask for insider info, rather than taking the media claim as Indian's loss. And he does not mark the Indian part as sourced from media.

Not sure what you’re trying to say, but I’ll repeat the same, that briefing has no accurate data in it nor does the officer have any official sources. He probably got reprimanded for it afterwards for making it look like he knew what he was saying. If you think the Indians are so willing to acknowledge their S400 losses then what about literally every other official Indian narrative?

 

[Great Mal]

I’ve gone through every single video from this guy and several other posters and compiled nearly 200 examples on my drive to find anything concrete, there’s nothing.

Plus This guy is not reliable at all; 90% of his videos are of random smoke in the distance claiming it’s some major hit to an Indian installation even though:

1. Smoke in the distance proves nothing, it could be a successful hit, but it could just as well be a miss or an intercepted missile debris.
2. Me and some people in IOK geolocated at least 3 sites which this poster was claiming as hits to airbases or ammo dumps or other Indian military installations and none of them are hits; they’re anywhere from a few hundred meters to several kilometers away from the claimed target.
3. On several occasions this poster has reposted videos and claimed they’re now of an entirely different target being hit than what he was claiming before.


The other 10% he posted was artillery shelling or videos of Indian jets going down which is actually useful and some of them were even new to me, but that’s what we already know and have seen to be successful. As it stands there is no more than 1/2 successful F1 hits known of the 18-24 missiles fired (either from video evidence or Sat imagery) and no successful CM400 Hit of the 2-4 fired. I’m not saying there aren’t more successful hits, there very well could be, we have several Indian anchors and the military spokespeople admitting that Indian bases were hit in some capacity, but either the damage was too superficial or there just hasn’t been any good visual evidence to corroborate it (or, as some of us have been saying, F1 and CM400 missed most of their targets, why this happened, we don’t know, but I’m sure it can and has been improved).

Artillery shells when fired also give off white smoke which can get intense when multiple artillery pieces are in near vicinity of each other.

There is no concrete evidence of Pakistan army doing any major damage the sole winner was Pakistan air force with 4 kills.

Now anything more and i will be blasphemed by the fauji army chair generals & their foot soldiers here

 

[Saifullah]

I understand your point about the age of the weaponry, but Again, that isn’t the reason civilian infrastructure was hit, it was hit with SH15s along with everything else, because there was not much care given for what was being hit in many instances. PA showed multiple times that it has the capability to pinpoint and hit Indian Mil posts along the LoC, over a dozen were taken out, was it really necessary to try and shell the ones within Kashmiri cities or close to population centers? We also showed in 2019 that we could deliver much heavier ordinance much closer to Indian military bases with Enough accuracy to not cause collateral damage. There are definitely alternatives present if they choose to use them.

None of what you presented is a good excuse at all for civilian causalities especially in a region and among a people you claim as your own, and this is just from the Pakistan perspective. Many Kashmiris on either side of the border are well aware that neither country really cares for the Kashmiri people and cause, it’s all a war of control over natural resources (water), narrative and image, the Pro-Pakistan sentiment is at an all time low in IOJK. They know they weren’t targeted on purpose; it’s worse, they know that we didn’t care enough to not put them in the line of fire. With all due respect the meme you shared is in very bad taste given the amount Kashmiris have directly and indirectly suffered from conflict and the loss of freedom in 70 years (on both sides of the border).

An extreme example of the same could be what Israel does in Gaza while targeting hospitals and then claiming they had “terrorists” in them. If india indiscriminately targets civilians and Pakistan takes up that issue at an international level, which Pakistan did, they must avoid doing the same for the point to stand, at least in Kashmir, even if mainland Indian cities are considered valid targets (which in my personal opinion they absolutely are given they targeted ours).

That leads me to my other point, the only civilian casualties on the Indian side were Kashmiri, What kind of a message does that send to people on either side of the border? They killed our civilians by indiscriminate attacks so we retaliated by doing only precision strikes in all of mainland India but indiscriminate shelling in IOJK resulting in multiple civilian casualties? I don’t know if that’s a fair trade at all.​

While I understand what you mean, most of the fighting on LOC during the conflict was in Jammu area and some of the most effected cities in IOJK, like Poonch are Muslim minority. These areas were always pro India or at best pro independence. Pro Pakistan Muslim Kashmiris are in Kashmir valley mostly and a few areas of pro Pakistan Muslim Gujjars and Paharis exits outside of the valley. Indian illegal non Muslims settlers have been building their illegal settlements in Jammu for a while now. Not justifying civilian casualties but India uses these populations for war even arming Hindu and Sikh civilians and making civilian militias out of them, who go on to kill Muslims in the area. Jammu itself was turned into a Muslim minority region after Jammu massacre orchestrated by Dogras and local non Muslim populations.

 

[Great Mal]

While I understand what you mean, most of the fighting on LOC during the conflict was in Jammu area and some of the most effected cities in IOJK, like Poonch are Muslim minority. These areas were always pro India or at best pro independence. Pro Pakistan Muslim Kashmiris are in Kashmir valley mostly and a few areas of pro Pakistan Muslim Gujjars and Paharis exits outside of the valley. Indian illegal non Muslims settlers have been building their illegal settlements in Jammu for a while now. Not justifying civilian casualties but India uses these populations for war even arming Hindu and Sikh civilians and making civilian militias out of them, who go on to kill Muslims in the area. Jammu itself was turned into a Muslim minority region after Jammu massacre orchestrated by Dogras and local non Muslim populations.

How will the people of Poonch will be pro Pakistan when India launched a attack on mainland Pakistan but we decided to shell the crap out of Poonch, a muslim majority area?

Is that how you win hearts? No one in Pakistan knows the actual demographics it would have done 1000% more damage to india when the army could have shelled jammu hindu majority district not Poonch.

 

[falcon34]

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[Toxic]

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Who is this guy? Lot of air routes have been closed so it isn't that far fetched.

 

[Lion]

While I understand what you mean, most of the fighting on LOC during the conflict was in Jammu area and some of the most effected cities in IOJK, like Poonch are Muslim minority. These areas were always pro India or at best pro independence. Pro Pakistan Muslim Kashmiris are in Kashmir valley mostly and a few areas of pro Pakistan Muslim Gujjars and Paharis exits outside of the valley. Indian illegal non Muslims settlers have been building their illegal settlements in Jammu for a while now. Not justifying civilian casualties but India uses these populations for war even arming Hindu and Sikh civilians and making civilian militias out of them, who go on to kill Muslims in the area. Jammu itself was turned into a Muslim minority region after Jammu massacre orchestrated by Dogras and local non Muslim populations.

The Indian Poonch District has a Muslim majority population of about 92%. Even the smaller Poonch city in particular is majority Muslim at around 45% of the population. You can be rest assured the shelling was not based upon which regions are Muslim majority or not, this is a terrible excuse.

 

[Psyko70]

Indians need something to celebrate on 15 august so Expect anything before that.

Hope we have new cards as element of surprise is no more with 7th may strategy.

 

[Saifullah]

How will the people of Poonch will be pro Pakistan when India launched a attack on mainland Pakistan but we decided to shell the crap out of Poonch, a muslim majority area?

Is that how you win hearts? No one in Pakistan knows the actual demographics it would have done 1000% more damage to india when the army could have shelled jammu hindu majority district not Poonch.

The Indian Poonch District has a Muslim majority population of about 92%. Even the smaller Poonch city in particular is majority Muslim at around 45% of the population. You can be rest assured the shelling was not based upon which regions are Muslim majority or not, this is a terrible excuse.

Poonch city is filled with Hindus and Sikhs. Most Muslims in Poonch district are nomadic Gujjars or rural Paharis. It’s not like the whole city was levelled. Some of my close friends are from the Muslim parts of Poonch city in IOJK. They were safe during it. Poonch city Muslims aren’t that pro Pakistan either and it’s not cuz Pakistan bombed it, it’s deeper than that. Poonch district has very pro Pakistan Muslims who are vital to resistance. Poonch city and Poonch itself is very important to Kashmiri resistance and the flow of fighters and supplies into IOJK. Bombing Poonch allows more people to cross into IOJK.

Jammu city has a sizeable Muslim population as well.

When war breaks out you can do your best to avoid civilian casualties but you can’t deny the significance of an area. Poonch is significant. Poonch city’s residence leaving serves the interests of Muslims in Poonch because most of the city is non Muslim. And artillery doesn’t level whole cities I’m sure Pakistan was at least not targeting Muslim neighbourhoods or else a few of my close friends who live in Poonch city would have lost their homes, which didn’t happen.

Also, the same logic applies to Waziristan or even Afghanistan. It’s halal to bomb them with artillery and risk civilian casualties when it’s 99% Muslim but haram when non Muslim majority, and strategically significant Poonch city is bombed? TTP and Taliban isn’t even an excuse cuz Poonch City’s Muslims have even protested in favour of India against Pakistan.

 

[Sipahsalar]

None of what was presented in this brief was accurate or should be taken seriously. The same brief was claiming Pakistan lost F16s and 90% of its AWACS capabilities. If you want to take the Indian losses from it as fact then you have to take the Pakistani ones as fact too. The truth is that this brief was just taken from social media information by a junior Indian officer making a presentation in a completely unrelated setting.

Why does an Indian military briefing need to be either 100% accurate or 100% inaccurate? Where does this logic stem from? It can have some accuracies and inaccuracies that you compare with third party or open sources if available.

So if they claim there was f16 shoot down we need to corroborate it, if they say their military bases were damaged then it is more likely to be accurate because conceding losses is harder.

 

[Lion]

Poonch city is filled with Hindus and Sikhs. Most Muslims in Poonch district are nomadic Gujjars or rural Paharis. It’s not like the whole city was levelled. Some of my close friends are from the Muslim parts of Poonch city in IOJK. They were safe during it. Poonch city Muslims aren’t that pro Pakistan either and it’s not cuz Pakistan bombed it, it’s deeper than that. Poonch district has very pro Pakistan Muslims who are vital to resistance. Poonch city and Poonch itself is very important to Kashmiri resistance and the flow of fighters and supplies into IOJK. Bombing Poonch allows more people to cross into IOJK.

Jammu city has a sizeable Muslim population as well.

When war breaks out you can do your best to avoid civilian casualties but you can’t deny the significance of an area. Poonch is significant. Poonch city’s residence leaving serves the interests of Muslims in Poonch because most of the city is non Muslim. And artillery doesn’t level whole cities I’m sure Pakistan was at least not targeting Muslim neighbourhoods or else a few of my close friends who live in Poonch city would have lost their homes, which didn’t happen.

Also, the same logic applies to Waziristan or even Afghanistan. It’s halal to bomb them with artillery and risk civilian casualties when it’s 99% Muslim but haram when non Muslim majority, and strategically significant Poonch city is bombed? TTP and Taliban isn’t even an excuse cuz Poonch City’s Muslims have even protested in favour of India against Pakistan.

I’m really sorry For the wording but all of this is just self-apologetic crap.

1. Poonch city has more Muslims than it has people of any other single religion. Over 45% of its population is Muslim.

2. Doesn’t Pakistan now consider Sikhs it allies as well? Doesn’t Pakistan claim all the people of Kashmir and not just its Muslims?

3. Do you really think they were taking where Muslims live and don’t live into consideration when firing artillery at civilian infrastructure? That’s almost comical. Or did they go and ask the Muslims in the city and the district who they supported before they started shelling? There are literally interviews and videos online of Muslims in IoK being affected by Pakistani shelling, not just from this conflict either. How will this make people leave Poonch? How Will bombing it allow anyone to cross? Why do we want to send people and weapons across in the first place when doing so has always backfired?

4. The difference between shelling Afghanistan and Iran versus Kashmir is that Pakistan doesn’t claim Afghanistan or Iran as its own people and territory as opposed to Kashmir. Saying that Poonch’s Muslims have protested in favor of India is such a sorry way to justify this, perhaps if Pakistan actually actually treated Kashmiris fairly or showed any amount of care for their opinions and lives beyond propaganda and rhetoric they’d actually want to be with Pakistan. When was the last time Pakistan did an open referendum in AJK to see what its people want and how their opinions are changing about Pakistan? Does Pakistan think it can placate Kashmiris indefinitely with cheaper electricity?

5. As it stands the Pro-Pakistan sentiment on both sides of the LoC in Kashmir is decreasing rapidly as more young Kashmiris realize what the Pakistani establishment thinks of Kashmir, this is alarming and Pakistan does not realize this. So far the only claim Pakistan has had to Kashmir is the Kashmiri peoples open support for joining Pakistan, this is eroding due to Pakistans own instability and actions, what steps has Pakistan taken to counter this?

6. The people of Kashmir are not stupid, quite the contrary, Kashmir is one of the most highly educated states in both nations, they will want to do what is best for their region and people, even if this means forgoing Indias history of oppression to side with them if India becomes the objectively better option for their future, Pakistan is lucky that the Indian leadership is also incompetent, but it doesn’t take much for a good leader to take charge in India and start listening to the Kashmiris, this combined with Indias rapid growth and plans for Kashmiri resettlement will very quickly erode any Pro-Pakistani sentiment in the region.

6. And before you tell me that Kashmiri Muslims will never support India, take one good look at Bangladesh which is literally willing to forgive what Pakistan did to it in 1947-1971 because it’s people have realized that Pakistan is objectively better for its goals than India is at the moment, is it also a coincidence that Bangladesh has the highest literacy rate, growth rate and GDP per capita In the region? Contrary to what a lot of Pakistanis think, Kashmir doesn’t owe as much to Pakistan as the government would have you believe, in exchange for their so called freedom (puppet government), they give up their natural resources, their right to self determination, foreign policy and so much more, if the Kashmiri populace start thinking this is an unfair deal, Pakistan will have another insurgency on its hands, and rest assured people in AJK do not appreciate Pakistan shelling civilians in IoK.

7. With all due respect, most people on this forum and generally in Pakistan have a VERY shortsighted view of AJK, IOK and GB. They do not understand how easy it is for public sentiment in these regions to grow against Pakistan both if they remain underdeveloped or become too developed, the former because they’ll get fed up with Pakistan and the latter because they’ll eventually get held back by Pakistan or will realize they don’t have the authority to make major decisions for their own land. Pakistan has to take ACTIVE measures to ensure that these regions actually retain Pakistani identity and feel like the trade off they make by being with Pakistan and giving Pakistan their resources is fair. Intellectuals from the region will absolutely understand the dangers of siding with India and trying to be independent of both sides too, Kashmir cannot exist by itself with neighbors like these, it has to be on a side, and eventually both sides will need other means than force to convince Kashmiris to side with them. Purely due to Pakistans economic and political state, India is in a far better position to be useful to Kashmir if it realizes it, and Pakistan has to do something before Indian realizes it.

Edit: realized after writing all this that this is off-topic, so I’ll not be replying to any further discussions regarding this in this thread.​

 

[Lion]

Why does an Indian military briefing need to be either 100% accurate or 100% inaccurate? Where does this logic stem from? It can have some accuracies and inaccuracies that you compare with third party or open sources if available.

So if they claim there was f16 shoot down we need to corroborate it, if they say their military bases were damaged then it is more likely to be accurate because conceding losses is harder.

Because it’s not an official Indian military briefing , it’s a briefing by a single officer in a foreign country who’s not using any good sources, clearly doesn’t have access to the real data and is going against every other official Indian claim, common sense would suggest the report is made up off social media claims instead of factual data, which it seems to align with rather than the official claims by either country.

 

[falcon34]

@Panzerkiel
Fatah series was Ballistic missile based right?.
Why add a Subsonic CM, that too with just 750kms of range?
Indian Supersonic CMs got shredded, what chance does this lad has in a dense AD environment?,
I am totally confused Sir, you gotta explain this