PAF F-16 | Discussions

[Bratva]

i dont know man... there are very trustworthy people on this forum, who i speak to regularly and were deeply involved and just within the last few years, some of the stories i heard have been horrifying... asking to send classified stuff over gmail...etc... Also, i know for a fact of a data breach into PaC by a french hacker which was not talked about by anyone or anywhere. I only found out about this because a close asssociate of mine mentioned it to me and i tried to get access to it to report it but he realised i was Pakistani...

The list of mid to senior ( BS-17 - BS 21 grade) Civilian employees ( around 5000) of ISI/MI/IB,FIA, PAEC, NESCOM, KRL with their names, CNIC, Designation, DOB, is still floating on the internet.No action taken about the vulnerability that leaked the list and it's been 3 years now.

 

[Bratva]

South Asians and their lust for bobs and money. You don't even have to try and immediately you'll have 2 terabytes worth of information. I'm not exactly what the hell is ISI and MI doing about this. Part of the job is making sure espionage and breaches in security doesn't happen

ISI/MI own employee list leaked and is on internet. What do you expect from them

 

[Oscar]

ISI/MI own employee list leaked and is on internet. What do you expect from them

Part of it also is there is no consequences attached to those leaks because those in charge don’t take IT seriously.

Take SPD - you need 5 signatures to get a USB in or out but your smartphone with a cable was perfectly fine. USBs are old game - and more importantly those running these security protocols come from a school of thought (in initial training) that does not take it seriously because they have no been impacted by it.

Only recently have they just started clamping down on social media dissent while completely ignoring people leaking information through tiktok videos.

That’s not to say its a blanket rule - there are people in senior leadership who did realize this but until it comes from the top and has follow ups built in then you cannot expect a policy to really percolate.

This is no different to any other org where you had people in shadow IT or giving their company corporate information to chatgpt to write emails - but the consequences of that have a lot more gravitas.

The other problem is that the larger the system the greater propensity for leaks and then you combine it with what your natural propensity as a nation.

Western nations have a tendency for work because food is scarce otherwise so it has built up - but they too have their forgotten clerks who are rubber stamping submarine metal grades potentially compromising multiple hulls.
Ever wonder why most cybersec companies are in Israel? You can cite conspiracy but at the end its also that that as a people they have a history of zero-trust and amplified so it is natural for them to focus on protecting information.

Meanwhile - what characteristics define people who live in agricultural lands in general and prefer spending most of their days in fields for a few hours and then looking for their few hours of relaxation in between.

Until you can culturally change who you are - and I put this concept in another thread as well - your military and other institutions, along with the general populace will reflect it.

 

[Lion]

The list of mid to senior ( BS-17 - BS 21 grade) Civilian employees ( around 5000) of ISI/MI/IB,FIA, PAEC, NESCOM, KRL with their names, CNIC, Designation, DOB, is still floating around the internet.No action taken about the vulnerability that leaked the list and it's been 3 years now.

Part of it also is there is no consequences attached to those leaks because those in charge don’t take IT seriously.

Take SPD - you need 5 signatures to get a USB in or out but your smartphone with a cable was perfectly fine. USBs are old game - and more importantly those running these security protocols come from a school of thought (in initial training) that does not take it seriously because they have no been impacted by it.

Only recently have they just started clamping down on social media dissent while completely ignoring people leaking information through tiktok videos.

That’s not to say its a blanket rule - there are people in senior leadership who did realize this but until it comes from the top and has follow ups built in then you cannot expect a policy to really percolate.

This is no different to any other org where you had people in shadow IT or giving their company corporate information to chatgpt to write emails - but the consequences of that have a lot more gravitas.

The other problem is that the larger the system the greater propensity for leaks and then you combine it with what your natural propensity as a nation.

Western nations have a tendency for work because food is scarce otherwise so it has built up - but they too have their forgotten clerks who are rubber stamping submarine metal grades potentially compromising multiple hulls.
Ever wonder why most cybersec companies are in Israel? You can cite conspiracy but at the end its also that that as a people they have a history of zero-trust and amplified so it is natural for them to focus on protecting information.

Meanwhile - what characteristics define people who live in agricultural lands in general and prefer spending most of their days in fields for a few hours and then looking for their few hours of relaxation in between.

Until you can culturally change who you are - and I put this concept in another thread as well - your military and other institutions, along with the general populace will reflect it.

I was basically typing something along the lines of what Oscar just said here but he’s put it far better than I could.

The “air-gaps” and cybersecurity SOP upgrades for the armed forces largely only exist on paper unfortunately. They’re followed partially at best, and in cybersecurity if you’re doing 80% you’re still doing 0% - especially when it’s applied to everyone apart from the senior officers who can’t be bothered to be inconvenienced.

None of the three armed forces have ever hired an actual internationally accredited third party to do Risk assessments and upgrade the cybersecurity infrastructure for them to Internarional standards because they think they can do it themselves despite not being cybersecurity professionals. People hype up NASTP so much, meanwhile they can’t figure out a basic secured WiFi connection that’s fast enough to be used for video calls.

The biggest problem with engineers and technical professionals in our armed forces (in general, not only regarding cybersecurity) is that they have no industry exposure and hence do not give any importance to international standards and accreditation. If you ever ask them about not getting a third party Risk assessment they’ll cite security risks or they’ll say nobody is able to do it locally (obvious issues with hiring an foreign company) even though there are multiple Pakistani companies who can provide this service. Instead the military thinks it can hire fresh STEM graduates and create its own cybersecurity experts cheaply without considering the amount of research that has gone behind standards.

This is all moot though, last I checked anyone with a rank high enough can just walk into the GHQ with a smartphone by saying “I don’t have one” because they feel too inconvenienced to leave it at the reception. That’s the level of cybersecurity we’re dealing with at the moment.

 

[air marshal]

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[Sparten]

Absolutely, i do personally believe the forces, including our nuclear ones have been deeply infiltrated, kinda like the Iranians. Theirs was for different reasons, ours was probably just a case of bobs and money.

You base that on what? Vibes?
We have a much more extensive and sophisticated program than the Iranians ever did.
And it succeeded despite a lot of active opposition.

 

[side-winder]

This is all moot though, last I checked anyone with a rank high enough can just walk into the GHQ with a smartphone by saying “I don’t have one” because they feel too inconvenienced to leave it at the reception. That’s the level of cybersecurity we’re dealing with at the moment.

That is one of that loopholes i was referring to in my posts. You need an officer higher in rank at the checkpoint to check an officer. Which usually doesn't happen. But at the very least, the NCO at checkpoint can physically search the junior NCO ranks. Back in days, smart phone wasn't even considered a threat until in recent years.

 

[Sparten]

Part of it also is there is no consequences attached to those leaks because those in charge don’t take IT seriously.

Take SPD - you need 5 signatures to get a USB in or out but your smartphone with a cable was perfectly fine. USBs are old game - and more importantly those running these security protocols come from a school of thought (in initial training) that does not take it seriously because they have no been impacted by it.

Only recently have they just started clamping down on social media dissent while completely ignoring people leaking information through tiktok videos.

That’s not to say its a blanket rule - there are people in senior leadership who did realize this but until it comes from the top and has follow ups built in then you cannot expect a policy to really percolate.

This is no different to any other org where you had people in shadow IT or giving their company corporate information to chatgpt to write emails - but the consequences of that have a lot more gravitas.

The other problem is that the larger the system the greater propensity for leaks and then you combine it with what your natural propensity as a nation.

Western nations have a tendency for work because food is scarce otherwise so it has built up - but they too have their forgotten clerks who are rubber stamping submarine metal grades potentially compromising multiple hulls.
Ever wonder why most cybersec companies are in Israel? You can cite conspiracy but at the end its also that that as a people they have a history of zero-trust and amplified so it is natural for them to focus on protecting information.

Meanwhile - what characteristics define people who live in agricultural lands in general and prefer spending most of their days in fields for a few hours and then looking for their few hours of relaxation in between.

Until you can culturally change who you are - and I put this concept in another thread as well - your military and other institutions, along with the general populace will reflect it.

Thats harsh. List of employees isn't top secret. Its one of thse things which is only technically classified.
And we have made a whole nuclear program and a missile one desoite massive and sabotage espionage efforts from west and east. CIA, MOSSAS, RAW, KGB and even fucking KHAD was trying to sabotage it at one point.
Like we had a laser enrichment program for 42 years before it was revealed in 2022. No one knew.
And smartphons are pardoxically easier to secure against then usbs. You can jam signals inside sensitive areas, white noise in background can mess with recording and you simply ask people to keep it outskde sensitive rooms before entering. USB are dangerous as ****.

 

[Sparten]

That is one of that loopholes i was referring to in my posts. You need an officer higher in rank at the checkpoint to check an officer. Which usually doesn't happen. But at the very least, the NCO at checkpoint can physically search the junior NCO ranks. Back in days, smart phone wasn't even considered a threat until in recent years.

Lol at that. Since getting access against the procedures orders of the day is one of the way officers test enlisted. There is zilh chanes a solier at a checkpoint won;t cehck a senior officer since he can get into a lot of trouble if he doesnt follow procedures

 

[Sparten]

Gettig tired of replying to everyone, but as a part of my work, I have had to go to ssveral very sensitve sites and.
1. Even in very sensitive sites there are levels. Not every place in a building is at the ame security level. A lot of the time the only checking at the gate is done to see if yo aren't an attacker and have a reason to be there. Once they have verified that they will let you in. Going places within that building will require further access control.
Like I have personally been in building where in one room I have watched YouTube videos and made WhatsApp calls and 40 feet away there is a room where they make you change out of **all** your clothes before you enter. And yes you do get the lucky homosexual who gets to oat you downb after you have changed,

2. What is and isn't a risk can be quite counter intutive. Smartphones aren't as risky as some imagine, and can be managed where they are.

3. i am not saying our secirty is operfect, or that sometims we have le than optimal implementation, but come on, Iranians were a new level of incomptetance.

 

[Cipher212]

This is intended to sting but how long did you use the Sabres?
The PAF inducted the F-86 Sabre in 1956 and retired it in 1980. That is a service life of exactly 24 years but the F-86 was a first-generation jet built for the Korean War era. By 1980, it was going up against Mach 2, missile-armed interceptors. It had to go because the jump from was absolute. A Sabre in 1980 was fundamentally useless in modern air combat.

Now look at the F-16s. Yes, the early blocks are old airframes but a F-16 MLU with Link-16 datalink, AMRAAMs, is still a highly lethal, multi-role 4th-generation platform. You cannot compare the obsolescence of a 1950s gunfighter to a modernized F-16. One was a flying museum piece; the other is still the backbone of air forces globally.

Then, as if money grows on trees for a bankrupt country like Pakistan... phasing out 75 F-16s 'right away' is a logistical nightmare If you dump 75 BVR-capable F-16s tomorrow to 'free up funds,' you create a massive capability gap just because you personally tired of American strings attached and somehow J-10s are sitting in warehouses in China ready to be packaged with free shipping.

Not right away, but just let them fade. Within the next 10-15 years.

 

[Cipher212]

btw this is the mentality of the jeets that continues to get them whacked.

it was the "Muh training and infrastructure" that has been consistently the ONLY reason the PAF is able to hold its own. I dont know why you write this off so easily, without this the PAF would be no different to any other force comprised of retards, like the Arabs, Africans or Indians.

Does the training and infrastructure go away with the F-16? Does it do things that the newer Chinese planes can't?


They did just fine on a new jet J-10 which was only a couple years in the service, so the training and doctrine is obviously carrying over. Whatever our pilots have learned by having a common platform with NATO and training with them was good but its aging.

So in that regard, yes, I do think that F-16 should be sent on a downwards slope. If they can keep flying till 2030-2035 great, but no more to sustain it.

 

[Cipher212]

Considering what old Iranian F-5 did to USA bases worth billions $, no jet is too old if it can fly.

I'm sure that Iranian F-5 pilot felt great, but also think of the losses faced by IRIAF due to their inability. I don't care what sort of stunts you pull with an airframe. At some point, it just isn't enough. The F-16 will struggle. Americans wont let us get the right weapons to make it a good stand off platform. They'll probably throttle spares in any future conflict too. Is it worth it?

Yes, Chinese are not benevolent either. I'm sure there are dozens of headaches with operating their aircraft. In a perfect world, we might have been flying 200+ upgraded F-16s, with permissions to integrate our own weapons on it like Turkey/Israel instead.

I just get the feeling PAF will have a lot more freedom and access to more useful weaponry if they go for a pure Sino fleet.

What else is left for PAF to learn from exercises with NATO?

 

[rafale]

logically, it makes the most sense.

The PAF still has a TON of airframes to replace. We tend to get starry eye'd when talking about j-10s and J-35's, but we forget, the PAF still operates F-7's, F-7PG's and Mirages.

While we talk about longer ranged BVRAAM's, a significant portion of the PAF fleet still does not have access to any BVR capability. We're putting lipstick on a pig here.

The F-16 fits in well here. Used airframes can be bought DIRT cheap. Esp now the F-35 phasing out some F-16's, the US is also adding tons to the boneyard every year. Including PW engine variants.

Now imagine you're a PAF decision maker. You can pick up F-16s on the cheap, as EDA's etc, and with an upgrade, have a top of the line fighter, one your techs, your pilots, your instructors and your facilities is intimately familiar with. You can also get them now. EDA F-16s could be refurbed and sent over in months and pressed into service basically immediately.

Aside from this, the US and KSA alongside other partners like Turkey kinda have a vested interest in ensuring the PAF is able to integrate well and easily into their networks. The PAF still maintains quite alot of coalition and international exercise work. If we consider the SMDA for example, an F-16 deployment made sense because it could be integrated into Saudi networks immediately reducing the risk of blue on blue in these tense situations.

I also now think the PAF has played this game very well. We used F-16s to pound terrorists in Afghanistan, then deployed them to protect Saudi interests, which are by extension global and US interests too, this now allows the PAF to make the case that they are not being procured SOLELY for a counterbalance to India, but for coalition work, counterterrorism and also then India. If you look up a DSCA notice, the PAF's F-16s always were pitched from the counterterrorism angle... Its whats needed to be done to prevent hissy fits in certain countries.

Also, now with the Saudis seeing the deployment, i wouldnt be shocked if they bankrolled some of this...

Great analysis, and i concur. This is what I have been thinking lately, that all of a sudden PAF is bombing afghandus left and right......whereas you could literally bomb afghanis with A-5Cs of yester years........why just now? The whole war against afghanistan is being done to push narrative that PAF is still focused on anti terror work and still needs F-16s for that. Remember how WVR F-16s were bought to fight against soviets and ended up being upgraded to BVR capable in later years to knock Indians?

Seems similar here......make a case that F-16s are needed by pakistan to continue ground ops under the guise of counter terrorism......and i believe if and when the next 'Upgrade' happens (and not merely sustainment contracts we have seen so far) it will include SABR, AIM120D (or equivalent) and some newer Air To Ground munitions as well, other than standard JDAMs.

And yes, the Saudis now have good reasons to fund the PAF.......to upgrade and maintain F-16s to seamlessly integrate in their Link16 compatible environment natively.....while also keeping options of hiring on contract the J-35 equipped PAF to counter any BS that UAE/Indian/Pissraeli nexus conjures.

Also, Sidhu wouldn't have travelled all the way to Washington just to negotiate sustainment contracts.

 

[Princeps]

Great analysis, and i concur. This is what I have been thinking lately, that all of a sudden PAF is bombing afghandus left and right......whereas you could literally bomb afghanis with A-5Cs of yester years........why just now? The whole war against afghanistan is being done to push narrative that PAF is still focused on anti terror work and still needs F-16s for that. Remember how WVR F-16s were bought to fight against soviets and ended up being upgraded to BVR capable in later years to knock Indians?

Seems similar here......make a case that F-16s are needed by pakistan to continue ground ops under the guise of counter terrorism......and i believe if and when the next 'Upgrade' happens (and not merely sustainment contracts we have seen so far) it will include SABR, AIM120D (or equivalent) and some newer Air To Ground munitions as well, other than standard JDAMs.

And yes, the Saudis now have good reasons to fund the PAF.......to upgrade and maintain F-16s to seamlessly integrate in their Link16 compatible environment natively.....while also keeping options of hiring on contract the J-35 equipped PAF to counter any BS that UAE/Indian/Pissraeli nexus conjures.

Also, Sidhu wouldn't have travelled all the way to Washington just to negotiate sustainment contracts.

Afghanistan is being bombed because they attacked us (directly and indirectly). And F-16s are simply the best tool for the job, why would PAF deliberately use worse or unreliable platforms?

I mean I agree with the rest but not sure where you are going with that one