PAF F-16 | Discussions

[BlueMarlin]

any chance of the block c/d's being upgraded to the v standard?

i dont think the crazy orangutan would argue.

 

[Trailer23]

To see if they could utilise the F-16 purely in a CAS role and compliment the A-10. Called A-16 for those trials

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https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-a-16-the-f-a-16-and-the-gpu-5-a-pave-claw-gun-pod-the-vipers-cas-variants-that-failed-to-replace-the-a-10/

Yeah, was watching something recently where they considered the F-16 for that particular role - a total failure. The F-16 was just too fast for that role.

I mean they say that nothing can truly replace the Viper. I believe that, but then again - i'm biased.

That being said, there is truly nothing out there or in the pipeline that could ever (possibly) replace the A-10.

THAT thing is a Beast. Just standing next to one with its gatling gun sticking out under the nose could put fear in anyone.

​

 

[Metal 0-1]

I was talking about the Camo.

Asked why we can't do Camo's on the Aggressors (Vipers) - similar to the USAF Aggressors used during Red Flag.

Its not like we can't afford 'em, 'cause we keep painting the beat up old Mirages that.

Seems like the Camo is reserved for Sidu's old Mirages & his new J-10's (only).

I think Iron Eagle & Flight of the Black Angel had 'em too.

Because they're not dedicated aggressors squadron. They just happen to be called "Aggressors"

 

[m52k85]

APKWS is about the only upgrade that can come in a reasonable money, time and politcal context.

 

[air marshal]

 

[Trailer23]

Because they're not dedicated aggressors squadron. They just happen to be called "Aggressors"

You're mistaken...

The No. 29 Squadron has a handful of Vipers - 05 to be exact. That doesn't make it a usual Squadron.

It is part of Combat Commanders' School (CCS), where the role is of: Advanced Air Combat Tactics Development & Training.

I have also had the pleasure of doing some work for them (individually) and their Squadron.

 

[Metal 0-1]

You're mistaken...

The No. 29 Squadron has a handful of Vipers - 05 to be exact. That doesn't make it a usual Squadron.

It is part of Combat Commanders' School (CCS), where the role is of: Advanced Air Combat Tactics Development & Training.

I have also had the pleasure of doing some work for them (individually) and their Squadron.

Yet they're not a dedicated aggressor squadron. It's a our take at top gun school.

 

[Trailer23]

Yet they're not a dedicated aggressor squadron. It's a our take at top gun school.

My good man, you are free to think as you like.

I've visited their Squadron and the #9 in Mushaf.

A good buddy of mine actually served with them at one point.

But again, you are free to have your own opinion/views.

 

[Yasser76]

You're mistaken...

The No. 29 Squadron has a handful of Vipers - 05 to be exact. That doesn't make it a usual Squadron.

It is part of Combat Commanders' School (CCS), where the role is of: Advanced Air Combat Tactics Development & Training.

I have also had the pleasure of doing some work for them (individually) and their Squadron.

man, shame we cannot give them more airframes, 5 is a small number, probably only just 3 available or maybe 4 on a good day

 

[ghazi52]

 

[Be dazzled]

Pulling 9g ain't a peace a cake

 

[Starlord]

Pulling 9g ain't a peace a cake

First time saw F-16's fly earlier this year at Lakeland Sun N Fun air show, and God that F-16 when it fly past rattle every bone in my body, F-16's have this aggression its aura but F-22 Raptors are just treat to watch, it almost seems like they are free floating in the sky and nothing put any stress on the plane, truly a marvel. And after the show I asked the pilot who was there said that F-22 demo only show 10-20% of what the plane can do

 

[ghazi52]

 

[Oscar]

@Oscar is it correct? per cost modernisation of f 16 15-20 million?

The Block-15s(ADF/AM/BM) are at the last quarter of their service life - but in the DSCA notification there is specific language in multiple contracts (someone keep me honest @Yasser76 @AeronautIR ).

450M package in 2022 - spares contract dedicated to Pakistan fleet sustainment - a blanket contract that covers a lot of pre-existing RFPs/support cases being awarded in one go.

488M wider contract 2026 - for Radars incl APG-66&68 of which Pakistan has a share - so you're a percentage of that overall contract for likely spares.

686M tech upgrade(avionics/networking) 2025 - this is where it is interesting.
"The proposed sale will maintain Pakistan’s capability to meet current and future threats by updating and refurbishing its Block‑52 and Mid Life Upgrade F‑16 fleet."
So you have kept the MLUs "current" - and more so "the proposed sale is intended to extend the service life of Pakistan’s Block‑52 and midlife‑upgrade F‑16 aircraft through 2040 while addressing critical flight safety concerns."

So the MLUs will also be kept operational for another 15 years and "extend service life".
The ADFs are NOT PART of this sustainment which means likely they might even go first so eventually a AM/BM unit will go back to being OCU. But that definitely some type of service life extension of the airframe is involved @AeronautIR ??

Because in general - to ensure life for Block-52 aircraft beyond 8000 hours is depot level work - the F-16A/Bs could potentially part of it - but that needs replacement/strengthen of wing boxes, reskinning wings etc. which could potentially allow F-16AM/BMs to go beyond 8000 hours this is not scoped at all.

So is a full upgrade for the AM/BMs - you need new radars, mission computers - logical?
Im going to say IF THE MONEY EXISTED -
You do 18 Block-52s to full F-16V
and the 45 odd MLUs to V-lite.

Lets say PAF picks the SABR - that is at least 4.5M installed set - incl lets say 10 spares about 350 mil right there all inclusive.

Wiring, power , software, mission computer - 63 jets is around ~5M per jet - additional 300M to just keep it round figure.

V level EW for Block-52s - while upgraded AIDEWS pods remain for MLUs - another 300M

Spares and so on which would be extra, then there is contractor work, billable hours, TA/DA for NG/LM and other folks

So all in all you end up spending about $2.5 billion but the notification ceiling of $3B.

Btw - this notification is max of spend by Pakistan.

For e.g. - when you bought your Block-52s the notification was $5 billion but you actually spent $3.1B.

 

[Yasser76]

The Block-15s(ADF/AM/BM) are at the last quarter of their service life - but in the DSCA notification there is specific language in multiple contracts (someone keep me honest @Yasser76 @AeronautIR ).

450M package in 2022 - spares contract dedicated to Pakistan fleet sustainment - a blanket contract that covers a lot of pre-existing RFPs/support cases being awarded in one go.

488M wider contract 2026 - for Radars incl APG-66&68 of which Pakistan has a share - so you're a percentage of that overall contract for likely spares.

686M tech upgrade(avionics/networking) 2025 - this is where it is interesting.
"The proposed sale will maintain Pakistan’s capability to meet current and future threats by updating and refurbishing its Block‑52 and Mid Life Upgrade F‑16 fleet."
So you have kept the MLUs "current" - and more so "the proposed sale is intended to extend the service life of Pakistan’s Block‑52 and midlife‑upgrade F‑16 aircraft through 2040 while addressing critical flight safety concerns."

So the MLUs will also be kept operational for another 15 years and "extend service life".
The ADFs are NOT PART of this sustainment which means likely they might even go first so eventually a AM/BM unit will go back to being OCU. But that definitely some type of service life extension of the airframe is involved @AeronautIR ??

Because in general - to ensure life for Block-52 aircraft beyond 8000 hours is depot level work - the F-16A/Bs could potentially part of it - but that needs replacement/strengthen of wing boxes, reskinning wings etc. which could potentially allow F-16AM/BMs to go beyond 8000 hours this is not scoped at all.

So is a full upgrade for the AM/BMs - you need new radars, mission computers - logical?
Im going to say IF THE MONEY EXISTED -
You do 18 Block-52s to full F-16V
and the 45 odd MLUs to V-lite.

Lets say PAF picks the SABR - that is at least 4.5M installed set - incl lets say 10 spares about 350 mil right there all inclusive.

Wiring, power , software, mission computer - 63 jets is around ~5M per jet - additional 300M to just keep it round figure.

V level EW for Block-52s - while upgraded AIDEWS pods remain for MLUs - another 300M

Spares and so on which would be extra, then there is contractor work, billable hours, TA/DA for NG/LM and other folks

So all in all you end up spending about $2.5 billion but the notification ceiling of $3B.

Btw - this notification is max of spend by Pakistan.

For e.g. - when you bought your Block-52s the notification was $5 billion but you actually spent $3.1B.

Yeah, think you are spot on here @Oscar

As per our chat on the Indo-Pak thread, I think the ADFs may be more hinderance then help in many ways.

Some of these airframes or all are possibly 3rd hand (USAF, then Jordan then Pakistan)
In theory they are all Blcok 15OCU standard (OCU standingh for Operational Capabilities Upgrade, not Operational Conversion Unit, although confusingly we use them for conversion too)

They obviously do not have the MLU upgrade so capability wise probably on par OPR less then a Block 1/II JF-17 (but even JF-17s have BVR). No one is flying these anymore so unsure how we are supporting the APG-66

In my opinion just station these by Iran/Afghanistan, let 11 Sqd do proper OCU job with it's MLU F-16A/Bs

PAF keeping these birds for the sake of Sqd numbers, the cost, crew and space could well be better served by another Block III JF-17.