hussain0216
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Does this mean we are getting another batch of J10s?
Have we placed a new order?
Or will be gradually induct J10s over time?
PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion
- Thread starter amuqeetk
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Does this mean we are getting another batch of J10s?
Have we placed a new order?
Or will be gradually induct J10s over time?
FOOLS_NIGHTMARE
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Oscar
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You will induct them when you have the money. My guess is that things are back to 2011-12 situation with economics where money is scarce to even play interest on the loans.
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FOOLS_NIGHTMARE
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Formation of 3x J-10C Indus Dragons over the skies of Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Soon J-31/FC-31 will be here to complement the fleet of J-10C, F-16 & JF-17.
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Cockpit view of the J-10C Vigorous Dragon of the Pakistan Air Force.
Note the Helmet Mounted Display
Note the Helmet Mounted Display
FOOLS_NIGHTMARE
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Moron ..
Fatman17
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On 11 March 2022, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received its first tranche of six J-10CE βDragonβ multi-role fighter aircraft from China. The new aircraft joined the PAFβs No. 15 Squadron, βCobras.β The induction of the J-10CE marked the end of the PAFβs six-year-long effort to seek a new fighter aircraft.
The PAF intended to acquire a new off-the-shelf fighter since around 2016. Originally, the PAF had sought to enlarge its F-16C/D fleet. In 2015, it secured approvals to order eight F-16C/D Block-52 with apparent plans to follow it up with another order of 10 aircraft.
It seemed that the PAF was working towards building its F-16C/D fleet to the originally planned force of 36 aircraft. Interestingly, before the 2005 earthquake, the PAF had reportedly planned to procure upwards of 55 F-16C/Ds with an option for another 20. While significant, the latter made sense as the PAF usually inducts a new fighter platform with a purchase roadmap for at least 90 units through the long-term.
However, the PAFβs F-16 plans fell through when the U.S. decided to prohibit the PAF from using Foreign Military Funds (FMF) to co-finance the acquisition. This triggered a series of rows between Islamabad and Washington that eventually led to the U.S. withholding future FMF and Coalition Support Funds (CSF) from Pakistan. As a result, the Pakistani military as whole lost interest in purchasing U.S.-origin weapons.
Thus, in 2016, the PAF decided to move ahead with an alternative fighter platform. Reports had emerged of the PAF showing interest in the Aviation Industry Corporation of Chinaβs (AVIC) J-10CE as well as Russiaβs United Aircraft Corporationβs (UAC) Su-35.[1] In 2017, the PAF Chief of Air Staff (CAS) at the time, Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman indirectly confirmed this interest, stating, βPakistan definitely has to induct new aircraft. We have both Chinese and Russian options.β[2]
ACM Amanβs statements showed that the PAF was β at least by 2017 β not evaluating any Western aircraft for procurement. Moreover, though the PAF seemingly had Russian options, the realistic outcome was for the PAF to procure a Chinese fighter. Thus, at this point, the J-10CE was an eventuality as it was β and still is β the only full-fledged Chinese fighter for sale (aside from the JF-17).
In 2020, the next PAF CAS, ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan, again reiterated that the PAF was open to procuring an off-the-shelf fighter. However, ACM Khan conditioned the purchase of another fighter on the need to induct a net-new air warfare capability. In an interview, ACM Khan said, βwe have to be aware of modern technologies, and if the acquisition of a new fighter fits into our doctrine, then we will try to acquire it. The balance has to be maintained.β[3] By this point, a new off-the-shelf fighter was firmly on the roadmap.
Ultimately, in June 2021, the PAF signed a contract with China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC) to purchase the J-10CE. The contract included both the aircraft plus training, ground support equipment (GSE), and weapon systems (notably the PL-15 or PL-15E)β¦
[2] Amir Zia. Interview of Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman. Bol Narratives. 01 April 2017. URL: https://web.archive.org/web/20170905180840/http://www.bolnarratives.com/two-fronts-one-mission/
[3] Alan Warnes. βOperation Swift Retort: One Year On.β Air Forces Monthly. April 2020. Page 35
J-10CE: The Story of Pakistanβs Newest Fighter Acquisition
PAKISTAN AIR FORCE NEWS QUWA PREMIUM EXCEPT by Quwa Team April 18, 2022On 11 March 2022, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received its first tranche of six J-10CE βDragonβ multi-role fighter aircraft from China. The new aircraft joined the PAFβs No. 15 Squadron, βCobras.β The induction of the J-10CE marked the end of the PAFβs six-year-long effort to seek a new fighter aircraft.
The PAF intended to acquire a new off-the-shelf fighter since around 2016. Originally, the PAF had sought to enlarge its F-16C/D fleet. In 2015, it secured approvals to order eight F-16C/D Block-52 with apparent plans to follow it up with another order of 10 aircraft.
It seemed that the PAF was working towards building its F-16C/D fleet to the originally planned force of 36 aircraft. Interestingly, before the 2005 earthquake, the PAF had reportedly planned to procure upwards of 55 F-16C/Ds with an option for another 20. While significant, the latter made sense as the PAF usually inducts a new fighter platform with a purchase roadmap for at least 90 units through the long-term.
However, the PAFβs F-16 plans fell through when the U.S. decided to prohibit the PAF from using Foreign Military Funds (FMF) to co-finance the acquisition. This triggered a series of rows between Islamabad and Washington that eventually led to the U.S. withholding future FMF and Coalition Support Funds (CSF) from Pakistan. As a result, the Pakistani military as whole lost interest in purchasing U.S.-origin weapons.
Thus, in 2016, the PAF decided to move ahead with an alternative fighter platform. Reports had emerged of the PAF showing interest in the Aviation Industry Corporation of Chinaβs (AVIC) J-10CE as well as Russiaβs United Aircraft Corporationβs (UAC) Su-35.[1] In 2017, the PAF Chief of Air Staff (CAS) at the time, Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Sohail Aman indirectly confirmed this interest, stating, βPakistan definitely has to induct new aircraft. We have both Chinese and Russian options.β[2]
ACM Amanβs statements showed that the PAF was β at least by 2017 β not evaluating any Western aircraft for procurement. Moreover, though the PAF seemingly had Russian options, the realistic outcome was for the PAF to procure a Chinese fighter. Thus, at this point, the J-10CE was an eventuality as it was β and still is β the only full-fledged Chinese fighter for sale (aside from the JF-17).
In 2020, the next PAF CAS, ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan, again reiterated that the PAF was open to procuring an off-the-shelf fighter. However, ACM Khan conditioned the purchase of another fighter on the need to induct a net-new air warfare capability. In an interview, ACM Khan said, βwe have to be aware of modern technologies, and if the acquisition of a new fighter fits into our doctrine, then we will try to acquire it. The balance has to be maintained.β[3] By this point, a new off-the-shelf fighter was firmly on the roadmap.
Ultimately, in June 2021, the PAF signed a contract with China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC) to purchase the J-10CE. The contract included both the aircraft plus training, ground support equipment (GSE), and weapon systems (notably the PL-15 or PL-15E)β¦
- After Inducting J-10CE, Pakistan Hints at More Defence Purchases
- Pakistanβs Air Warfare Additions for the 2020s
- Pakistan Reveals its own βSpace Commandβ
[2] Amir Zia. Interview of Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman. Bol Narratives. 01 April 2017. URL: https://web.archive.org/web/20170905180840/http://www.bolnarratives.com/two-fronts-one-mission/
[3] Alan Warnes. βOperation Swift Retort: One Year On.β Air Forces Monthly. April 2020. Page 35
Fatman17
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Through this decade, the J-10CE and JF-17 Block-3 will form the new mainstay of the Pakistan Air Forceβs (PAF) combat aircraft fleet. However, one can readily guess that the J-10CE and JF-17 will make up a βhigh-low mixβ β i.e., a combination of a larger, βhigh-endβ fighter complemented by a smaller, βlow-endβ fighters in greater numbers. In fact, with every generation, the PAF had always built a high-low mix, at least since the start of its own jet age when it inducted both the F-86 and F-104.
However, this generationβs high-low mix could be fundamentally different due to one factor between the J-10CE and JF-17 Block-3: a common technology platform.
Historically, the PAFβs high-low mix combinations β be it the F-104 and F-86, or the Mirage III/5 and the F-6, and the F-16 and F-7P/PG β had generational gaps. Basically, the βhigh-endβ fighter was usually a full generation ahead in terms of technology than its βlow-endβ counterpart.
As a result, with each generation of PAF fighter fleets, the PAF had a situation where it would lean on a small number of advanced jets for its most qualitatively impactful roles.
For example, in the 1980s, it was the Mirage 5PA3 that carried the PAFβs anti-ship warfare (AShW) role through its capability to deploy the Exocet anti-ship cruising missile (ASCM). The F-6s, which had formed the bulk of the PAF fleet by this point, did not have this capability. The newly inducted F-16s could possibly complement the Mirage 5PA3s in the AShW role, though the PAF did not secure an ASCM for the platform.
In general, the PAF had managed an inverted β80/20β situation where 20% of its platforms could carry out 80% of all required combat roles. While the high-end fighters were highly capable assets, they were always too few in numbers to create an aggregate strategic effect. Practically, the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Navy (IN) did not have to deal with the threat of several hundred fighters employing the latest technology or air combat capabilities. The technology threat was usually confined to several dozen aircraft, and that in itself was an advantage. Eventually, the IAF and IN could bank on the chance that the PAF depletes most of its spare parts and, as a result, deployers even fewer βhigh-endβ fighters.
Today, the PAF is championing the J-10CE as its new marque, high-end fighter. In fact, the PAF even terms the J-10CE as an βomni-roleβ asset. Thus, at one level, the J-10CE will still be a scarce asset within the PAF. In fact, while the PAF would never induct a new fighter platform without a roadmap to procure more than 90 units, Pakistanβs tenuous economic condition could dampen that vision and result in fewer aircraft. But even if the J-10CE ends up being a scarce asset within the PAF, its qualitative edge will live on across many other β potentially most β fighters in the PAF fleetβ¦
J-10CE and JF-17 β Pakistanβs Emerging High-Low Mix
DAILY NEWS PAKISTAN AIR FORCE NEWS QUWA PREMIUM EXCEPT by Quwa Team January 22, 2023Through this decade, the J-10CE and JF-17 Block-3 will form the new mainstay of the Pakistan Air Forceβs (PAF) combat aircraft fleet. However, one can readily guess that the J-10CE and JF-17 will make up a βhigh-low mixβ β i.e., a combination of a larger, βhigh-endβ fighter complemented by a smaller, βlow-endβ fighters in greater numbers. In fact, with every generation, the PAF had always built a high-low mix, at least since the start of its own jet age when it inducted both the F-86 and F-104.
However, this generationβs high-low mix could be fundamentally different due to one factor between the J-10CE and JF-17 Block-3: a common technology platform.
Historically, the PAFβs high-low mix combinations β be it the F-104 and F-86, or the Mirage III/5 and the F-6, and the F-16 and F-7P/PG β had generational gaps. Basically, the βhigh-endβ fighter was usually a full generation ahead in terms of technology than its βlow-endβ counterpart.
As a result, with each generation of PAF fighter fleets, the PAF had a situation where it would lean on a small number of advanced jets for its most qualitatively impactful roles.
For example, in the 1980s, it was the Mirage 5PA3 that carried the PAFβs anti-ship warfare (AShW) role through its capability to deploy the Exocet anti-ship cruising missile (ASCM). The F-6s, which had formed the bulk of the PAF fleet by this point, did not have this capability. The newly inducted F-16s could possibly complement the Mirage 5PA3s in the AShW role, though the PAF did not secure an ASCM for the platform.
In general, the PAF had managed an inverted β80/20β situation where 20% of its platforms could carry out 80% of all required combat roles. While the high-end fighters were highly capable assets, they were always too few in numbers to create an aggregate strategic effect. Practically, the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Navy (IN) did not have to deal with the threat of several hundred fighters employing the latest technology or air combat capabilities. The technology threat was usually confined to several dozen aircraft, and that in itself was an advantage. Eventually, the IAF and IN could bank on the chance that the PAF depletes most of its spare parts and, as a result, deployers even fewer βhigh-endβ fighters.
Today, the PAF is championing the J-10CE as its new marque, high-end fighter. In fact, the PAF even terms the J-10CE as an βomni-roleβ asset. Thus, at one level, the J-10CE will still be a scarce asset within the PAF. In fact, while the PAF would never induct a new fighter platform without a roadmap to procure more than 90 units, Pakistanβs tenuous economic condition could dampen that vision and result in fewer aircraft. But even if the J-10CE ends up being a scarce asset within the PAF, its qualitative edge will live on across many other β potentially most β fighters in the PAF fleetβ¦
Fatman17
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In 2022, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) started inducting two major weapon systems: the J-10CE Dragon multi-role fighter aircraft and the Bayraktar AkΔ±ncΔ± high-altitude, long-endurance (HALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV). The PAF has also hinted at potentially acquiring the HQ-9 long-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) system. Overall, these systems β along with the much-anticipated JF-17 Block-3 β form the core of the PAFβs air modernization efforts for the rest of this decade.
For the 2020s, the PAF is firmly focusing on fully transitioning its fighter fleet to the fourth-generation and fourth-generation-plus standards. In addition, it is inducting a HALE UAV capability, a significant addition considering that relatively few countries in the world that have access to such solutions.
However, once its transition is complete, the baseline fighters of the PAF fleet will consist of 4th-generation platforms, i.e., non-upgraded JF-17 Block-1/Block-2s and F-16A/B Block-15-based Mid-Life Update (MLU).
Granted, some platforms may soldier on in niche areas (e.g., the Dassault Mirage III/5s in the strike role), but its general fighter fleet, the PAF will transition to multi-role fighters across the chain, be it lightweight or medium-weight platforms. Not only that, but a substantial portion of these fighters will essentially be 4+/4.5-generation platforms equipped with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, integrated electronic countermeasures (ECM) suites, and advanced long-range air-to-air missiles (LRAAM).
When viewed in the context of having close to 20 fully-equipped squadrons of multirole fighters, this will be a significant evolution for the PAF. Several years ago, the PAF had remarked on becoming a true βnext-generationβ force, and fully retiring F-7P/PGs and Mirage III/5s from frontline roles is the first step.
The next step would likely involve bringing all multirole fighters to the same general standards β i.e., fourth or fourth-plus generation. From at least a supply standpoint, this will be easier to achieve through adding more J-10CEs and/or JF-17 Block-3s. In fact, as Quwa noted earlier, the PAF only inducts a net-new fighter platform when it intends to acquire at least 90 units of that type. Thus, Quwa expects that the PAF could induct a total of at least 90 J-10CEs by 2030. Funding would be the main constraint. However, the PAF can spread its procurement throughout the decade via small-batch purchasesβ¦
Pakistanβs Air Warfare Goals for the Decade are Taking Shape
PAKISTAN AIR FORCE NEWS QUWA PREMIUM EXCEPT by Bilal Khan November 13, 2022In 2022, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) started inducting two major weapon systems: the J-10CE Dragon multi-role fighter aircraft and the Bayraktar AkΔ±ncΔ± high-altitude, long-endurance (HALE) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV). The PAF has also hinted at potentially acquiring the HQ-9 long-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) system. Overall, these systems β along with the much-anticipated JF-17 Block-3 β form the core of the PAFβs air modernization efforts for the rest of this decade.
For the 2020s, the PAF is firmly focusing on fully transitioning its fighter fleet to the fourth-generation and fourth-generation-plus standards. In addition, it is inducting a HALE UAV capability, a significant addition considering that relatively few countries in the world that have access to such solutions.
A Multi-Role Fighter Fleet
Basically, the outcome of transition to a fleet of 4/4+ generation fleet is that the PAF will phase out most of its legacy generation fighters. In fact, the F-16 and JF-17 Block-1 and Block-2 have largely replaced the F-7P and Mirage III/5s in frontline roles, especially in the air-to-air domain.However, once its transition is complete, the baseline fighters of the PAF fleet will consist of 4th-generation platforms, i.e., non-upgraded JF-17 Block-1/Block-2s and F-16A/B Block-15-based Mid-Life Update (MLU).
Granted, some platforms may soldier on in niche areas (e.g., the Dassault Mirage III/5s in the strike role), but its general fighter fleet, the PAF will transition to multi-role fighters across the chain, be it lightweight or medium-weight platforms. Not only that, but a substantial portion of these fighters will essentially be 4+/4.5-generation platforms equipped with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, integrated electronic countermeasures (ECM) suites, and advanced long-range air-to-air missiles (LRAAM).
When viewed in the context of having close to 20 fully-equipped squadrons of multirole fighters, this will be a significant evolution for the PAF. Several years ago, the PAF had remarked on becoming a true βnext-generationβ force, and fully retiring F-7P/PGs and Mirage III/5s from frontline roles is the first step.
The next step would likely involve bringing all multirole fighters to the same general standards β i.e., fourth or fourth-plus generation. From at least a supply standpoint, this will be easier to achieve through adding more J-10CEs and/or JF-17 Block-3s. In fact, as Quwa noted earlier, the PAF only inducts a net-new fighter platform when it intends to acquire at least 90 units of that type. Thus, Quwa expects that the PAF could induct a total of at least 90 J-10CEs by 2030. Funding would be the main constraint. However, the PAF can spread its procurement throughout the decade via small-batch purchasesβ¦
Deino
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hussain0216
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Ahhhhhhh
Deino
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I do not know why, but I get the feeling the J-10C purchase is a stop gap and a bit of a reaction to Rafale in India.
If PAF is serious about Stealth and is planning in induction in next few years, my guess is we may not see more then a couple of Sqds of J-10C in PAF service, say 36-40 tops.
J-10C is a great plane, but it does not represent the generational leap from F-16/JF-17 to Stealth.
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