PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[Bilal]

But we literally cannot do this.

One H4 requires 2 mirage's.

So at best, we can launch what, 15, 20 at a push?

Infact, going into India to launch H4s with large mirage packages probably would have been a death wish. Best suited to dropping bombs on advancing indian formations

Absolutely , deep strikes would be nuts, we had (have) enough targets within 100km to create the shock effect with large warheads plus with the Boosted REKs.

The main issue was to give an off ramp and do a token strike to save face. They were content with the result of the air to air engagement (apparently).

 

[Ak01]

Not really. The launchers are too far spread out to really concentrate on one target or area and a large amount would be held in reserve. The bigger problem is the 200+ brahmos IN can launch at a time against Karachi for example

Again, this is simply not true, 200 of BrahMos is a significant concern like

 

[AeronautIR]

but this is the issue, we dont need to see pinpoint accuracy, we only need to see enough of a mass attack for it to get lucky.

They only need to get lucky once, we need to get lucky every time.

HAS may not be sufficient, we saw the effectiveness of HAS against modern munitions is kinda debatable- yes, its true that BrahMos warhead is not optimised for this, but its sheer amount of kinetic energy etc could do the job. The point really is just that we should not underplay the threat, rather, overplaying the threat even allows us to ensure we are covered from every angle, i would rather this, than be complacent that BrahMos strikes from India are limited, not enough launchers etc etc. When wartime hits, you'll see all sorts of jugaad

Actually, this is my personal opinion. PAF has been war gaming non-stop since May and their plans against such threats are already underway.
I didn't say it wasn't a threat but the discussion started on the point whether Brahmos can knock PAF out even for few hours and my answer is no, it can't.
About precision, if they are launching about 150 Brahmos and they know around 80% will be intercepted, the rest 20% must find their mark, just like the air-launched ones. Otherwise, there will be hits but not much impact.
If I were an Indian, I would literally slap everyone who was responsible for Su-30 upgrade. Those missiles definitely have pinpoint accuracy. Lucky for us, they don’t have them in numbers.

 

[Ali_Baba]

And I respect your opinion but here is the thing. Before we talk about whether Brahmos can penetrate HAS or not, it doesn't matter if India has thousands more Brahmos. The Air launched version is most accurate with only 2 Su-30 sqn capable of carrying it. Surface launched version is less accurate and it doesn't hit with same precision like ALCM, not to mention even their TELs are limited, so can't be fired in hundreds. The navy can't come close to Karachi and can't threaten any base above the coastal belt.
I think they have 1500 in total and if we are talking about PAF bases except in Karachi, IAF and IA can't launch even 200 Brahmos at any given time.

Why would the launch platform affect the accuracy? Surely it is the same INS and targetting systems used across both? The only difference should be that the airlaunched variant has longer range?

 

[Bilal]

You can call it BrahMos tunnel vision, or you can replace it with Pralay, or whatever you want. The reality is the BrahMos is their foremost strike weapon, and can be deployed widely against a variety of targets.

All I am saying is overplay all threats in proportion. Next time it’s most likely going to be all that.

We should not overlook other systems completely.

 

[AeronautIR]

but the issue is, we didnt use them because we simply just dont have enough.- i guess i cant be certain, but im very sure that we simply just dont have enough from what i see.

Here we disagree again. The reasons for strategic restraint were not because of numbers. If that were true, we wouldn't have used CM-400 too.
We could have fired one cruise missile to show intentions but it was decided we wouldn't climb on that rung of escalation ladder. Whether it was the right decision or not is a different debate.

 

[AeronautIR]

Yes my apologies, that was my digression. The main point was:

“I was talking in terms of threats we might face, counter that will be needed and damage we will need to factor in.”

We should not get tunnel visioned by Brahmos.

Honestly, we are tunnel visioned due to use of air forces mostly in May. we are only talking about aircraft and missiles. Pakistan is better off than India if we think of Army too.
For example, even if PAF doesn't have long range cruise missiles, we can ask Army Rocket Force to fill that gap through use of Fateh-IV. However, IAF can't ask any other service to do something about PAF's PL-15 threat. So they will remain at back foot in aerial engagements with no help from Army.

 

[Ibbi32]

Even just 100 launches can keep multiple Airbases offline for hours even assuming a 60% interception rate that's still 40 missiles going through that will have massive effect on sortie rates during the initial phase of a conflict.

Well from what we saw the interception rate was a good bit more than 60% and its not like PAF and fatahs arent there to start their own strikes on launch sites and storage sites like we did in beas

 

[AeronautIR]

Even just 100 launches can keep multiple Airbases offline for hours even assuming a 60% interception rate that's still 40 missiles going through that will have massive effect on sortie rates during the initial phase of a conflict.

At the cost of repetition, this scenario is practically not possible. Only ALCMs can hit the targets with precision and even if I agree with your rate of 60%, all 40 will not hit their mark. Biggest problem is Su-30 but they don't have a 100 in this role.

 

[hasssanali8998]

we can ask Army Rocket Force to fill that gap

still years before they are a real threat to India .

 

[Bilal]

Honestly, we are tunnel visioned due to use of air forces mostly in May. we are only talking about aircraft and missiles. Pakistan is better off than India if we think of Army too.
For example, even if PAF doesn't have long range cruise missiles, we can ask Army Rocket Force to fill that gap through use of Fateh-IV. However, IAF can't ask any other service to do something about PAF's PL-15 threat. So they will remain at back foot in aerial engagements with no help from Army.

Strange jump from II to IV for Fatah series

 

[Toxic]

Well from what we saw the interception rate was a good bit more than 60% and its not like PAF and fatahs arent there to start their own strikes on launch sites and storage sites like we did in beas

A 70% interception rate from 40-50 odd launches not bad but can't expect that interception rate from when dealing with a far larger Salvo.

 

[Oscar]

with all due respect, i disagree with your assessment.

Whats there to say it cant target HAS?

India has about 2000+ BrahMos in stocks, all we need is a shock and awe style attack.

Heck, even if we assume for a second all fighters are protected, that theyre impossible to destroy due to HAS etc, enabling assets etc are not in HAS, theyre very vunerable to attacks and will be attacked.

We can bury our heads in the sand, this wont help us though, it will lead to serious losses, or we can address the reality and figure out a way of ensuring safety of our assets.

Runway craters are expected, but the asset losses that can come with runway destruction cant be repaired in a few hours though

Having 2000 doesn’t mean I can launch 2000 on day 1 or even 200.
Or sustain the launch.

Having 2000 doesn’t also mean the first 200 need their motors and electronics to go through LRU before they can be even used.

 

[Toxic]

Honestly, we are tunnel visioned due to use of air forces mostly in May. we are only talking about aircraft and missiles. Pakistan is better off than India if we think of Army too.
For example, even if PAF doesn't have long range cruise missiles, we can ask Army Rocket Force to fill that gap through use of Fateh-IV. However, IAF can't ask any other service to do something about PAF's PL-15 threat. So they will remain at back foot in aerial engagements with no help from Army.

Sir How many F4s do you think ARFC has? Maybe a few dozen at most, F2s can't hit IAF bases deeper into India

 

[AeronautIR]

Why would the launch platform affect the accuracy? Surely it is the same INS and targetting systems used across both? The only difference should be that the airlaunched variant has longer range?

It is not only Brahmos but true for many ALCM vs SLCM unless you make it more sophisticated. Will have to go through my books for details but the drift is more in surface launched. The initial phase with booster and more weight of missile makes it more susceptible to errors.
Even with satellite guidance, CEP can be more than 1m, though not more than 5m. Hence, still very good but relatively less accurate.
The discussion was about HAS and runway craters and 1 or 5m can be the difference that matters in this case.
Otherwise, for big targets, all can be considered precise enough.