PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[hasssanali8998]

On the other hand Pakistani Fateh Missiles did pretty well.

sorry , but we need evidence .

 

[Bratva]

This also applies to us as well. The limiting factor for the new rocket force will be how many offensive missiles it can actually deploy and use. We could be producing 1,000 Fatah 2 and Fatah 4 each month for all that it matters, but if we have just a few dozen TELs (which probably isn't too far off the truth maybe) then it doesn't really matter how many missiles we have, the rest will be stored, susceptible to being targeted, and then turnaround time and reloading logistics will be critical. The Fatah series is our first real attempt at producing a conventional strike capability, whereas previously our land based strike weapons were primarily intended for nukes and deterrence, and therefore produced in limited numbers. I would be very keen to see how many TELs we actually produce and deploy, not how many missiles.

Israel-Iran war also showed if you have traitors amidst you and advance satellite coverage, you can limit the number of barrages by targeting the TEL's extensively.

 

[AeronautIR]

I have to disagree with your opinion. Indians has a better satellite coverage of our military assets than Pakistan has of India. India demonstrated the pinpoint strike capability in May skrimish based on the satellite data. In the next round, what is stopping them from sending a barrage of Land based and Air based Brahmos from the get go? We talking about the ranges of 300-400 KM. Well out of PAF BVR ranges.

Fatah-IV is subsonic. Indians air-defence are much more layered and advance than ours. Let's take an example from Ukraine war and the interception rate of slow moving cruise missiles.

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You have all the right to disagree. Our success rate of strikes is better than Indians but you won't believe me unless we release the satellite imagery. And here lies the basic problem. I don't know when it will be released, but till then we will continue to think India had upper hand in May conflict.
And as to What is stopping them from sending a barrage? Same thing that stopped them this time. I mean just think about it. If they have the capability, why did they accept the cease fire? If it was US pressure, why not send those barrages before agreeing to it?
Fateh-IV is not just subsonic, it is stealth design with terrain-hugging and AI features. SCALP-EG is subsonic too, just like Tomahawk. Moreover, the Ukraine interception rate in recent months has decreased drastically due to 2 main reasons. First is the reduced US help and second is the sophisticated and upgraded Russian tech in missiles.

 

[safriz]

sorry , but we need evidence .

Exactly. ISPR failed at that.
But the fact that a day before the Fateh Launch, Pakistan did ask USA to intervene and US just said its Pakistan India internal matter. I will try to dig up the news. They basically declined Pakistani request.
The next day after Fateh attacks, table turned and it was India asking all the top tier US leadership to stop the war. So something did happen.

 

[AeronautIR]

So we can now fully integrate any weapon of choice onto the JF17 completely independently?

And the Azerbaijani jf17s also has additional Turkish sensors and radar installed and was that work completed independently by Pakistan also?

Well, it is Chinese avionics so I don't know about what you mean by independtly. But we don't have to send the aircraft to China if that answers your question.

 

[Oscar]

Wait so the hangar wasn't a direct hit?

I would say it was an offset hit.
Much like the one for Shahbaz although that took out more of the Hangar there than Bholari - different build style.


Debris hit a lot of the Saab - primary to the front but also to the top fuselage and Radar AFAIK. But because PAF already has experience(thanks to the irony of Kamra attack and lack of base security then) in repairing the airframe and systems it either has or is in the process of starting FCF on that airframe.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

I agree the need to be critical but if that Brahmos was truly pinpoint the Saab would not have survived. It was a case of hit on a particular location and mass of missile carrying debris through. I saw a pic from someone who was a 100m off.

Bachat hogayi comparatively despite the loss of life.

And all things considered, there is no way in hell PAF has enough funds to ensure everything is caught.

The biggest issue here isn’t 20% getting through but that no Quick response was available to target the launchers once tracks were picked up.

Scud hunting in 91 was a nightmare for combined NATO forces because they had no idea where Scud locations were or potential storage sites- in your case you know where they have their hardened storage, launch areas - sat coverage.

Etc.

Deterrence required not a shield. Losses are inevitable. What required is a capability which will keep enemy at a bay or at least will force it to factor in a response which will cause similar or more damage. This is how peace has been achieved along LoC. Indians are bullys. Everytime they do something stupid, PA units response them with a weapon having calibre a notch up. We need to achieve this capability in PAF as well. There is no other way to achieve deterrence. Unfortunate reality is, right now, there is no comparison between both airforces in SOW / ALCM categories and this caused us all the damages Bratva mentioned in his post.

 

[safriz]

Well, it is Chinese avionics so I don't know about what you mean by independtly. But we don't have to send the aircraft to China if that answers your question.

As far as i know, Pakistan has the software keys and contractual permissions to integrate amend anything in the JF-17. Unlike F-16 where a plethora of contractual restrictions and software locks doesn't allow Pakistan to do anything.

But the final certification of any software or Hardware changes made by Pakistan to JF-17 happens in China. Only they issue the certificates. Thats mainly for the export market.

 

[AeronautIR]

Now this is puerly a subjective approch. We lost men and aircraft both in Bohlari(partially or fully is still debateable). We don't know what exactly happened in Jaccobabad and Nur Khan, Murid, and to those radars. So, trying to brush these losses (Potential or actual) under the rug is not going to serve our national security interests any good.
I would love to see any sort of proof of any tangible Pakistani counter strike. So far all we have heard are claims. For a common man it may be believeable to listen to Waseem Badami on ARY News telling us this air base of India destroyed and that Indian air field nullified in just few minutes but for people like us it is only natural to raise question in the absence of those satellite pictures from our side especially when we know how big an average airbase usually is on Indian side and how much firepower required to actually "destroy" them. You yourself explained in one of your posts that IAF will have to put a lot more effort to completely negate operations from Sargodha. So, It is only natural to ask how PAF is going to achieve the same with smaller fleet size and smaller platform with smaller range +yield weapons? This naturally lead us to next question; what sort of systems we need to achieve that!
Even if I concede that India couldn't achieve anything at all (remember even in 65/71 India was not able to hit this many PAF installations) there is no way to ensure that next time IAF will made same mistakes. Flankers are formiddible platform and so is Rafale, IAF's poor planning caused them so many aircraft on 7th ... but see, the same MKI launched many successful hits against same PAF without any loss on 9th and 10th. Because they changed the tactics after realizing the mistake.
Finally, you are an IR scholar, so a word of caution, when we discuss PAF vs. IAF, we must understand, it is actually far bigger and complex equation with many powerful players directly and indirectly involved.

Man, you need to write shorter posts. We exactly know what happened in Nur Khan, Murid and Jacobabad. It is upto you to believe it or not.
If staying at 200 km from enemy is change in tactic, I should salute the Indian planners. Next time, they should not even fly their aircraft and call them improved tactics.
Lastly, IR is a separate matter. Only question being debated here was whether India has the capability to launch enough Brahmos to take out multiple PAF bases in 1 attack. My simple answer is no and you all have a right to disagree.

 

[Bratva]

You have all the right to disagree. Our success rate of strikes is better than Indians but you won't believe me unless we release the satellite imagery. And here lies the basic problem. I don't know when it will be released, but till then we will continue to think India had upper hand in May conflict.
And as to What is stopping them from sending a barrage? Same thing that stopped them this time. I mean just think about it. If they have the capability, why did they accept the cease fire? If it was US pressure, why not send those barrages before agreeing to it?
Fateh-IV is not just subsonic, it is stealth design with terrain-hugging and AI features. SCALP-EG is subsonic too, just like Tomahawk. Moreover, the Ukraine interception rate in recent months has drastically due to 2 main reasons. First is the reduced US help and second is the sophisticated and upgraded Russian tech in missiles.

There is a problem with Pakistani claims of having satellite evidence about damages but indians has hired a european guy who is releasing High-Def satellite imagery of Indian bases since past few months which shows no damage occurred. I'll share his X handle and one of his tweets. He has shared lot of satellite images of indian bases debunking Pakistani claims

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[AeronautIR]

Deterrence required not a shield. Losses are inevitable. What required is a capability which will keep enemy at a bay or at least will force it to factor in a response which will cause similar or more damage. This is how peace has been achieved along LoC. Indians are bullys. Everytime they do something stupid, PA units response them with a weapon having calibre a notch up. We need to achieve this capability in PAF as well. There is no other way to achieve deterrence. Unfortunate reality is, right now, there is no comparison between both airforces in SOW / ALCM categories and this caused us all the damages Bratva mentioned in his post.

If there was no damage to India or no deterrence shown on 10th, the conflict would have continued.
If there was no S-400 strike, there was no need for a cease fire and Brahmos hits should have continued.
If Pakistan is not a military peer competitor to India, they should have destroyed a weaker adversary comprehensively. A damaged aircraft and few martyrs for price of 8 aircraft and 2 S-400 batteries doesn't really proves their delusional claims.

 

[Bratva]

Yes, india went full capacity against Pakistan on that day. If anyone thinks India held back, they are wrong.
Likewise the destruction of Brahmos storage facility , stopped India from Lunching another attack until the Brahmos numbers are replenished.

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[AeronautIR]

There is a problem with Pakistani claims of having satellite evidence about damages but indians has hired a european guy who is releasing High-Def satellite imagery of Indian bases since past few months which shows no damage occurred. I'll share his X handle and one of his tweets. He has shared lot of satellite images of indian bases debunking Pakistani claims

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There is no problem with claims. As I said, the imagery has not been released by Pakistan and so everyone thinks we were not able to hit anything. Now, if Indian commanders know the truth and public doesn't, that is enough for me because they are the ones who decide to wage war and not the masses.

 

[Oscar]

There is a problem with Pakistani claims of having satellite evidence about damages but indians has hired a european guy who is releasing High-Def satellite imagery of Indian bases since past few months which shows no damage occurred. I'll share his X handle and one of his tweets. He has shared lot of satellite images of indian bases debunking Pakistani claims

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Depends on what he is sharing, on what time slot and more importantly who is verifying his images?

Getting Nicki Minaj to Saudi Arabia doesnt mean all is Okerrrrrr.

 

[Oscar]

I also suggest taking all discussion on damage and conflict here:
https://defencepk.com/forums/thread...5-news-updates-and-discussion.21640/page-3112