PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[S.Y.A]

Do we? Where is that number set in stone?

1 J-10C is worth 3 F-7s. I appreciate one plane cannot be in 3 places at the same time, but a 300 strong PAF Fleet with J-31/J-10/F-16/JF-17 is much much better then a 400 fleet of JF-17/J-10C/F-16/Mirage/F-7 no?

why do we need less?

because of the defeatist strategy of maintaining minimum credible deterrence?

what use is an airforce if it wont be able to defend our airspace for a long period of time in case of a protracted conflict? or an airforce that wont be able to wipe the floor with the enemy? a 20 sqdn, or less, airforce cannot go on an all-out offensive. it may score a few hits here and there, but will be wiped out in a week.

 

[Yasser76]

why do we need less?

because of the defeatist strategy of maintaining minimum credible deterrence?

what use is an airforce if it wont be able to defend our airspace for a long period of time in case of a protracted conflict? or an airforce that wont be able to wipe the floor with the enemy? a 20 sqdn, or less, airforce cannot go on an all-out offensive. it may score a few hits here and there, but will be wiped out in a week.

No, sorry, this makes no sense, it is not actual Squadron numbers but actual capability that is important. By your argument the large North Korean Air Force can defeat a smaller, but more well equippped and traind South Korean aIR force

 

[S.Y.A]

No, sorry, this makes no sense, it is not actual Squadron numbers but actual capability that is important. By your argument the large North Korean Air Force can defeat a smaller, but more well equippped and traind South Korean aIR force

...and by your argument we should have a smaller less capable airforce to go up against a larger, and better equipped IAF. we are not facing against afghanistan that we need to reduce numbers.

how many jets will PAF loose if it decides to go on an offensive against india? how many will be shot down in our own territory while defending? how many will go up in flames on the ground? after all that, will we have enough numbers to be able to win, or will we look for a ceasefire agreement after another 14 days of fun?

 

[S.Y.A]

No, sorry, this makes no sense, it is not actual Squadron numbers but actual capability that is important.

we do not have the capability, and you want to reduce the numbers as well.

 

[Yasser76]

we do not have the capability, and you want to reduce the numbers as well.

If you read what I wrote that is not what I said I simply stated that a fleet of more advanced fighters requires less numbers. The 20 sqd number, where does that even come from? Why not 16 sqds of more advanced planes?

 

[Yasser76]

...and by your argument we should have a smaller less capable airforce to go up against a larger, and better equipped IAF. we are not facing against afghanistan that we need to reduce numbers.

how many jets will PAF loose if it decides to go on an offensive against india? how many will be shot down in our own territory while defending? how many will go up in flames on the ground? after all that, will we have enough numbers to be able to win, or will we look just a ceasefire agreement after another 14 days of fun?

Yeah, I know all that

 

[S.Y.A]

If you read what I wrote that is not what I said I simply stated that a fleet of more advanced fighters requires less numbers. The 20 sqd number, where does that even come from? Why not 16 sqds of more advanced planes?

but we do not have more advanced fighters. our planners made sure of that when they rejected the rafale. the chinese ones arent as capable as european ones, no matter what our airforce says. and on top of that, we have no twin engine jets that can strike deep into india.

what we have is jf-17. which we need more of, if we want to be able to counter IAF effectively.

 

[Yasser76]

but we do not have more advanced fighters. our planners made sure of that when they rejected the rafale. the chinese ones arent as capable as european ones, no matter what our airforce says. and on top of that, we have no twin engine jets that can strike deep into india.

what we have is jf-17. which we need more of, if we want to be able to counter IAF effectively.

OK, clearly missing the point here, never mind.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[Awwad]

If you read what I wrote that is not what I said I simply stated that a fleet of more advanced fighters requires less numbers. The 20 sqd number, where does that even come from? Why not 16 sqds of more advanced planes?

Minimum sqd number is made according to the numbers with the enemy, the area & size of operations required. PAF will always go for hi-low mix. 4.5 or 5th gen provides advance capability but you can't get those in high quantity because of cost, so you need more affordable planes to fill up numbers & various roles.

Now why numbers are important? That's because the kind of fullscale war bw indo/pak demands it. If you are planning to replace 4 JF-17s with one J-31 then its severely limits airforce performance. One J-31 cannot be at 4 different places at the same time. If for some technical issues / maintenance one J-31 is unable to fly or even destroyed in its bunker in enemy attack / lost as attrition then its total loss. But if one of jf-17s can't fly or is unavailable you still got 3 birds available. I hope you get the point why numbers are important. Even the US keeps hi-low mix, their high end is F22 / F-35s and lows as F-15s & F-16s, Same with China / Russia and others. Only very small & very rich countries can go for only high end aircrafts as it will suit them according to their tiny size. They possibly cannot have numbers because of limited number of pilots availability, limited land / airspace. So they have to make best use of available space. Pakistan do not have such limitations. But it does have financial limitations that's why hi-low mix is preferred.

 

[Yasser76]

Minimum sqd number is made according to the numbers with the enemy, the area & size of operations required. PAF will always go for hi-low mix. 4.5 or 5th gen provides advance capability but you can't get those in high quantity because of cost, so you need more affordable planes to fill up numbers & various roles.

Now why numbers are important? That's because the kind of fullscale war bw indo/pak demands it. If you are planning to replace 4 JF-17s with one J-31 then its severely limits airforce performance. One J-31 cannot be at 4 different places at the same time. If for some technical issues / maintenance one J-31 is unable to fly or even destroyed in its bunker in enemy attack / lost as attrition then its total loss. But if one of jf-17s can't fly or is unavailable you still got 3 birds available. I hope you get the point why numbers are important. Even the US keeps hi-low mix, their high end is F22 / F-35s and lows as F-15s & F-16s, Same with China / Russia and others. Only very small & very rich countries can go for only high end aircrafts as it will suit them according to their tiny size. They possibly cannot have numbers because of limited number of pilots availability, limited land / airspace. So they have to make best use of available space. Pakistan do not have such limitations. But it does have financial limitations that's why hi-low mix is preferred.

Where did I say numbers are not important, if you read my posts I said they are and a certain mass is critical, but asked where did we get the 20 sqd figure from? Why is 20 th minimum and not say 16?

 

[Qureshi]

Minimum sqd number is made according to the numbers with the enemy, the area & size of operations required. PAF will always go for hi-low mix. 4.5 or 5th gen provides advance capability but you can't get those in high quantity because of cost, so you need more affordable planes to fill up numbers & various roles.

Now why numbers are important? That's because the kind of fullscale war bw indo/pak demands it. If you are planning to replace 4 JF-17s with one J-31 then its severely limits airforce performance. One J-31 cannot be at 4 different places at the same time. If for some technical issues / maintenance one J-31 is unable to fly or even destroyed in its bunker in enemy attack / lost as attrition then its total loss. But if one of jf-17s can't fly or is unavailable you still got 3 birds available. I hope you get the point why numbers are important. Even the US keeps hi-low mix, their high end is F22 / F-35s and lows as F-15s & F-16s, Same with China / Russia and others. Only very small & very rich countries can go for only high end aircrafts as it will suit them according to their tiny size. They possibly cannot have numbers because of limited number of pilots availability, limited land / airspace. So they have to make best use of available space. Pakistan do not have such limitations. But it does have financial limitations that's why hi-low mix is preferred.

As stated in other thread earlier that the following appears to be the rational fleet size:

PAF would probably consist of following (UAVs not included).

Post 2025 - 30

11 Sqdn (~200) -JF17s (I/II/III) BLK I & II will get upgrade to III standards
03 Sqdn (~60) - J10Cs
04 Sqdn (~75) - F16s (MLU-ed & BLK52)
02 Sqdn (~40) - L15Bs
02 Sqdn (~40) - Mirage (ROSE III)

22 Sqds, mix of 4-4.5 gen aircrafts (BVR capable)


Post 2030 - 35

11 Sqdn (~200) -JF17s (I/II/III)
04 Sqdn (~80) - J10Cs
04 Sqdn (~75) - F16s (MLU-ed & BLK52) If upgraded to "V" or otherwise only BLK 52
03 Sqdn (~60) - L15Bs
01 Sqdn (~18) - J31s
01 Sqdn (~18) - KAAN (subject to Indigenized engine)

22-24 Sqds, mix of 4.5 - 5 gen aircrafts

Pakistan’s push to replace legacy aircraft

I’m just glad we got rid of the flying pipe. F7?

defencepk.com

 

[Abid123]

As stated in other thread earlier that the following appears to be the rational fleet size:

PAF would probably consist of following (UAVs not included).

Post 2025 - 30

11 Sqdn (~200) -JF17s (I/II/III) BLK I & II will get upgrade to III standards
03 Sqdn (~60) - J10Cs
04 Sqdn (~75) - F16s (MLU-ed & BLK52)
02 Sqdn (~40) - L15Bs
02 Sqdn (~40) - Mirage (ROSE III)

22 Sqds, mix of 4-4.5 gen aircrafts (BVR capable)


Post 2030 - 35

11 Sqdn (~200) -JF17s (I/II/III)
04 Sqdn (~80) - J10Cs
04 Sqdn (~75) - F16s (MLU-ed & BLK52) If upgraded to "V" or otherwise only BLK 52
03 Sqdn (~60) - L15Bs
01 Sqdn (~18) - J31s
01 Sqdn (~18) - KAAN (subject to Indigenized engine)

22-24 Sqds, mix of 4.5 - 5 gen aircrafts

Pakistan’s push to replace legacy aircraft

I’m just glad we got rid of the flying pipe. F7?

defencepk.com

Mirage (ROSE III) is 4th generation?

 

[Qureshi]

Mirage (ROSE III) is 4th generation?

Not entirely (avionics wise) but PAF can continue such type for deep strike role by the end of this decade.

 

[CombatCorner]

The Spearhead : A Fully Armed PAF J-10C in The Interceptor Configuration.