PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[Han Patriot]

Did you see any pakistani here?
View attachment 119616
I don't think Pakistan has any input in the design of the J-10 at all. The genesis of J 10 starts with J 9 back in the 1960s, but due to Cultural and low levels of industrial base, it never came to fruition. It had to wait until the 1980s when it was revived. But the experience gained in the design of J9 facilitates the development of J10. Song Wenchong was instrumental in the design of the J-10, and His assistant Yang Wei designed most of the fly-by-wire system. It was a rumor that the Israelis might help design fly by wire. But never confirmed!

I don't think Pakistan will risk cutting off spare parts by helping the Chinese, since they have to sign a "Nondisclosure agreement," and General Dynamics has personnel on the ground to guard against leakage of secret information. The best they can do is maybe give the design parameters of the F-16. Traditionally, Pakistan imports most of its weapons from the US and looks down on Chinese weapons. Only recently, in the 2000s, they source it from China because they were cut off from US supply

Chengdu J-10, History, Performance & Discussion

Introduction: This topic is about the History, Performance & Discussion of Chengdu J-10. English is not my native language, and the sources are also quite diverse, so if you have any suggestions please feel free. Due to confidentiality reasons, I can only provide rough data, such as the names...

forum.warthunder.com

This topic is about the History, Performance & Discussion of Chengdu J-10.

English is not my native language, and the sources are also quite diverse, so if you have any suggestions please feel free.

Due to confidentiality reasons, I can only provide rough data, such as the names and approximate performance of radar, engines, and weapons.

Chinese Air-To-Air missiles


image4403×2731 331 KB

J-10 (猛龙, Vigorous Dragon):


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J-9 (Canard) “The Predecessor of J-10”

On April 1, 1966, the “J-9 Aircraft Design Plan” was submitted. The National Defense Science and Technology Commission held a meeting to review the design plan of the J-9 aircraft and submitted the “J-9 Aircraft Tactical and Technical Demonstration Report” to the Central Military Commission. The report proposes that J-9 has a maximum speed of Mach 2.4, a ceiling of 21 km, a maximum range of 3000 km, a Radius of action of 600 km, a maximum endurance of 3 hours, and a maximum Rate of climb of 180~200 m/s. In order to enable the 601 Institute (Shenyang) to concentrate on developing the J-8, the development task of the J-9 was transferred to the newly formed 611 Institute (Chengdu) in April 1970.
In 1978, due to the urgent requirements for the J-7C undertaken by 611, the development work of the J-9 began to shrink. In 1980, in order to implement the national economic adjustment policy, the development of the J-9 was completely suspended. Due to the Cultural Revolution, the J-9 lasted for more than ten years and ultimately came to an end. Its achievements, especially the canard layout, abdominal air intake and medium range intercepting weapon Fire-control system, provide valuable experience for the development of J-10.

Performance

• Engine: Type 910
• Radar: Unknown
• Air-To-Air Weapons: Unknown
• Air-To-Surface Weapons: Unknown

J-10


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Like the “J-11”, the " J-10" is not a confirmed name, but this does not prevent us from referring to the early models that could only use PL-11 as the J-10. The image shows the earliest prototype, the J-10 “1001”.
The early J-10 differed from the J-10A in many details such as body shape and landing gear doors. Due to its initial intention to use the WS-10, the body shape was specifically optimized for the WS-10, and many positions were significantly different from the J-10A, which was confirmed to have undergone shape improvements after adopting the AL-31F.

You still don't get my message, the plane had inputs from F16 provided from Pakistan. We were blind to many Western standards after 1989. Do you understand? If you are trying to create a rift, I am going to report you to the mods.

 

[guangdongt]

The U.S is a necessary evil, don't get me wrong most Pakistani don't hate the U.S apart from it's foreign policy and constant wars

But china is a reliable, long term ally for Pakistan and Pakistani trust China, the relationship is strong

Pakistan needs to expand it's economy, so we can find education, health care, military etc

The U.S and Europe continue to be one of Pakistans major trading partners , and Pakistan can't afford to cut them off without replacements when our economy needs all the support it can get

Our Pakistani diaspora which is one of the biggest in the world, also has large populations in the west I. uk, Europe, U.S and Canada etc

Yes, I agree with you. The survival of a country is driven by multiple factors, and maintaining a country requires consideration of various factors such as the economy. I believe this is the reason why most countrymen, including myself, do not want to discuss other countries' politics. The approach of the United States intervening everywhere is actually constantly consuming their national strength, and in the future, it will become an increasingly heavy burden for them. Indians and Americans only use each other. And we just want to seek common ground while reserving differences. Let's return to the topic of J10C. Currently, there are 20 J10Cs in Pakistan, and no one is sure about their next move. I went to the Zhuhai Air Show last year, and J10C has upgraded its wing triple mount and belly double mount, further developing into a multifunctional fighter jet. J10 is the holy land in the hearts of our generation of middle-aged military enthusiasts. Because we grew up following the news of j10 development when we were young. I also became a military enthusiast because of the J10, because at that time, China's military equipment was too outdated. Except for the J10, which kept up with the world trend, other weapons were hardly advanced in the 1990s. At that time, we were quite poor, and the J10 was a true turning point in the history of Chinese fighter jet development. We invested all of China's aviation research forces and completed the entire development process of all fighter jets for the first time, including the development of electronic control systems and supporting engines. J10 truly laid the foundation for the explosion of China's aviation industry.

 

[hussain0216]

Pakistan if all reports are correct will purchase the J35 and it will be Pakistans primary air craft

Numbers will gradually grow over time
If the J35 starts to come into the PAF in the next 2 -3 years then their is no point in more J10s

The current combination of J10s, JF17s and F16s is effective

However if the J35 takes another 5+ years to work itself into the PAF, then Pakistan needs to increase the J10 numbers ASAP to at least 30-40 fighters

 

[Fatman17]

How Pakistan became China’s air power showroom

Source: The Express Tribune
https://search.app/BkTZx

Shared via the Google App

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Pakistan if all reports are correct will purchase the J35 and it will be Pakistans primary air craft

Numbers will gradually grow over time
If the J35 starts to come into the PAF in the next 2 -3 years then their is no point in more J10s

The current combination of J10s, JF17s and F16s is effective

However if the J35 takes another 5+ years to work itself into the PAF, then Pakistan needs to increase the J10 numbers ASAP to at least 30-40 fighters

On Contrary , J10C has become the ideal plane to replace Mirage fleet

• Advance plane maneuverability
• Decent weapon load
• Avionics / Engine
• Radar

I can see J10C and JF-17 Block III being the backbone
of Airforce , with F16 C/D reserved for Special Missions or Duties

J-35 Most like will be a Separate Class of it's own in Pakistan Airforce
And may be even KAAN appearing in PAF in future

 

[zhanlong]

You're assuming that there is no credit - but Im stating that it is a combination of Chinese equipment and knowhow - coupled with existing PAF standards and training and knowhow that has achieved this. PAF wasn't flying jets into the ground before China helped nor was PAF the only one who can employ Chinese equipment that effectively.
Everyone learns and takes input.
Your image is also false - the J-10C that was flying was the culmination of the efforts of those three engineers and HUNDREDS of other people - INCLUDING INPUT provided for the J-10B by PAF personnel stationed at CAC for the JF-17 program.
The J-10C is a far cry from the J-10A that flew.

Before starting a military project in China. It is impossible for any foreigner to get close to this project. Foreigners won't even know about the project. Even most Chinese people don't know.

of course. If you like it. You can say that PAF personnel provide valuable JF-17 experience to J-36.

 

[Oscar]

Before starting a military project in China. It is impossible for any foreigner to get close to this project. Foreigners won't even know about the project. Even most Chinese people don't know.

of course. If you like it. You can say that PAF personnel provide valuable JF-17 experience to J-36.

No - I can tell you from CPD JF-17s mouth who was in China - Back in 2008 - that as they were working with Chief engineer of JF-17 to add refinements - they also tested out J-10A as potential strike fighter.

Based on their evaluation - as with all other fighters PAF evaluates with China - they provided a list of improvement suggestions including ergonomics which also were part of JF-17 program. Infact, the JF-17 of original design was completely revised based on the PAF pilots/engineers present in Chengdu(at times over 100) who were learning but also providing input based on their experience. Experience that came from F-16, Mirage 2000 and evaluation other aircraft like Typhoon and Rafale. These suggestions went into JF-17 and J-10B. J-10C draws from J-10B but then includes J-20.

Now you can be nationalistic and suggest nothing was given - that is your right.. You can be arrogant and make snide remarks on J-36 which has NOTHING to do with development of 3rd(Chinese) gen JF-17 and J-10B.

My source is former CPD JF-17 to my face - in person. Most people who know me here know I do not make things up.

 

[iblini]

No - I can tell you from CPD JF-17s mouth who was in China - Back in 2008 - that as they were working with Chief engineer of JF-17 to add refinements - they also tested out J-10A as potential strike fighter.

Based on their evaluation - as with all other fighters PAF evaluates with China - they provided a list of improvement suggestions including ergonomics which also were part of JF-17 program. Infact, the JF-17 of original design was completely revised based on the PAF pilots/engineers present in Chengdu(at times over 100) who were learning but also providing input based on their experience. Experience that came from F-16, Mirage 2000 and evaluation other aircraft like Typhoon and Rafale. These suggestions went into JF-17 and J-10B. J-10C draws from J-10B but then includes J-20.

Now you can be nationalistic and suggest nothing was given - that is your right.. You can be arrogant and make snide remarks on J-36 which has NOTHING to do with development of 3rd(Chinese) gen JF-17 and J-10B.

My source is former CPD JF-17 to my face - in person. Most people who know me here know I do not make things up.

Not this topic related, but just like to know is PAF military grade Beidou accessible?

 

[wanglaokan]

No - I can tell you from CPD JF-17s mouth who was in China - Back in 2008 - that as they were working with Chief engineer of JF-17 to add refinements - they also tested out J-10A as potential strike fighter.

Based on their evaluation - as with all other fighters PAF evaluates with China - they provided a list of improvement suggestions including ergonomics which also were part of JF-17 program. Infact, the JF-17 of original design was completely revised based on the PAF pilots/engineers present in Chengdu(at times over 100) who were learning but also providing input based on their experience. Experience that came from F-16, Mirage 2000 and evaluation other aircraft like Typhoon and Rafale. These suggestions went into JF-17 and J-10B. J-10C draws from J-10B but then includes J-20.

Now you can be nationalistic and suggest nothing was given - that is your right.. You can be arrogant and make snide remarks on J-36 which has NOTHING to do with development of 3rd(Chinese) gen JF-17 and J-10B.

My source is former CPD JF-17 to my face - in person. Most people who know me here know I do not make things up.

At the beginning of the project, the Pakistan Air Force wanted to replace old models with modern fighters due to its own needs, so it cooperated with China to propose the need to develop a low-end configuration and more advanced fighter, which determined the basic direction for the development of the JF17 fighter. During the development process, Pakistan participated in the whole process, put forward project requirements, etc., and completed the entire research and development process. For example, in terms of avionics systems, Pakistani experts actively participated and worked closely with the Chinese team. Some of the actual combat needs and usage feedback they put forward played an important role in the design and optimization of the avionics system. In addition, in terms of the overall performance indicators of the aircraft, weapon mounting capabilities, combat radius, etc., Pakistan also gave suggestions based on its own combat missions and usage environment, and these suggestions were incorporated into the design of the JF17 fighter.

 

[zhanlong]

No - I can tell you from CPD JF-17s mouth who was in China - Back in 2008 - that as they were working with Chief engineer of JF-17 to add refinements - they also tested out J-10A as potential strike fighter.

Based on their evaluation - as with all other fighters PAF evaluates with China - they provided a list of improvement suggestions including ergonomics which also were part of JF-17 program. Infact, the JF-17 of original design was completely revised based on the PAF pilots/engineers present in Chengdu(at times over 100) who were learning but also providing input based on their experience. Experience that came from F-16, Mirage 2000 and evaluation other aircraft like Typhoon and Rafale. These suggestions went into JF-17 and J-10B. J-10C draws from J-10B but then includes J-20.

Now you can be nationalistic and suggest nothing was given - that is your right.. You can be arrogant and make snide remarks on J-36 which has NOTHING to do with development of 3rd(Chinese) gen JF-17 and J-10B.

My source is former CPD JF-17 to my face - in person. Most people who know me here know I do not make things up.

oh You also know it's a 'suggestion'. JF-17 is made for Pakistan. Unique to Pakistan. Of course, Pakistan's suggestion should be respected.

As for J-10B/C. They are not only serving Pakistan. They are mainly tested by Chinese pilots. All technology comes from China.

If you are serious. Please answer me. Do you guarantee that Pakistan's experience is absolutely correct? So much so that China must retain Pakistan's proposal in J-10B/C or even J-20?

If Pakistan's suggestion is completely correct. China should retain it to J-36. We can proudly announce. J-36 was completed with the participation of Pakistan.

 

[Oscar]

At the beginning of the project, the Pakistan Air Force wanted to replace old models with modern fighters due to its own needs, so it cooperated with China to propose the need to develop a low-end configuration and more advanced fighter, which determined the basic direction for the development of the JF17 fighter. During the development process, Pakistan participated in the whole process, put forward project requirements, etc., and completed the entire research and development process. For example, in terms of avionics systems, Pakistani experts actively participated and worked closely with the Chinese team. Some of the actual combat needs and usage feedback they put forward played an important role in the design and optimization of the avionics system. In addition, in terms of the overall performance indicators of the aircraft, weapon mounting capabilities, combat radius, etc., Pakistan also gave suggestions based on its own combat missions and usage environment, and these suggestions were incorporated into the design of the JF17 fighter.

And this is what I alluded to which seems to have offended many a Chinese member here:

That the pilots and engineers there ALSO looked at J-10A for a strike fighter requirement(which was abandoned due to lack of funds) and part of their suggestions and ask for changes took from JF-17. Pakistan never bought the J-10 then but saw their suggestions go into J-10B.

J-10C had ZERO Pakistani input - it is natural Chinese incorporation of J-20 tech.

Also on same note - if something digs through old archives of Defence.pk the old compromised forum - from 2011 - I made a post regarding Chinese Low observable designs and said there is J-20, FC-31 and one more design from Chengdu which was never followed up.

 

[Han Patriot]

Before starting a military project in China. It is impossible for any foreigner to get close to this project. Foreigners won't even know about the project. Even most Chinese people don't know.

of course. If you like it. You can say that PAF personnel provide valuable JF-17 experience to J-36.

J10A is not a refined craft like the J10C. I am not downplaying Chinese engineering, but we needed a foreign input and feedback from somewhere to compare. The Pakistanis were that conduit, and I am grateful for that relationship, they had extensive experience with European and American aircrafts for decades and this was shared with us after 1989 when the Americans started an embargo. They didn't have the technology, they had the operational experience which we need, it was the same as how we go operational experience for carriers from the Brazillians. Nobody works alone in this world, and I think some Chinese are too nationalistic.

 

[Han Patriot]

Where is the proof that they provided F-16 input? Show it to me. Before 1980, there was minimal contact between the Chinese and Pakistani military. Can you read? It is impossible to leak because a non-disclosure agreement binds Pakistan. I don't do anything to violate the rules of this forum. I state the fact! Pakistan has no input in the design of the J-10. They do in JF 17. I have followed the Chinese military development for more than 20 years! I never heard that Pakistan had input in the design of J-10

J10A was the original plane, J10B/C was the refinement. Pakistan didn't have the technology but they had experience, operational experience to be specific. You have to give credit when it is due, stop being so blindly nationalistic. I find alot of Chinese members here too nationalistic and fail to work and cooperate globally. After 1989, we were cut off from foreign experiences, Pakistan had access to both European and American planes, those gave us some insights into their capabilities. The world is linked and you cannot succeed if you work alone. I can see why some people hate Chinese. it is this lack of EQ, that's why an Indian can be CEO and a very 'smart' Chinese will be the engineer who complains how it is unfair.

 

[Han Patriot]

Dear Pakistani friends, I have to apologize for some comments from my countrymen, some of them have never left China nor met a foreigner. They are maybe no different from your hindutva bhai thinking India is the greatest and center of the world. EQ is abit low sometimes.

 

[wanglaokan]

And this is what I alluded to which seems to have offended many a Chinese member here:

That the pilots and engineers there ALSO looked at J-10A for a strike fighter requirement(which was abandoned due to lack of funds) and part of their suggestions and ask for changes took from JF-17. Pakistan never bought the J-10 then but saw their suggestions go into J-10B.

J-10C had ZERO Pakistani input - it is natural Chinese incorporation of J-20 tech.

Also on same note - if something digs through old archives of Defence.pk the old compromised forum - from 2011 - I made a post regarding Chinese Low observable designs and said there is J-20, FC-31 and one more design from Chengdu which was never followed up.

since I've been in defence.Pk for 15 years, i know exactly what you are talking about .