PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

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RajaBaja said:
I didn't make an opinion. I am taking context from your own post. You stated some Chinese people have told you they give bribes to Pakistani officials at multiple levels. I asked on what levels the bribe's being paid and on what projects?

And if you can't back up your claims, then don't make such serious comments either on an international forum that makes Pak-China relationship look bad. Pakistan comes first and always!
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Do you want me to put their financial transaction record on the forum ???

Deposit records and records of transfer of funds into the accounts of Pakistani personals who are close relatives of officials ???

What are you man ??? Are you even serious??? Just read your own post

And just as reminder again what was my post go read it again

- I never talked about CPEC, Defense Deals or any government to government contracts between Pakistan and China.

- I gave just a single example were a Chinese firms who is doing business 'exclusively' with other Chinese origin Individuals and business in Pakistan and is charging high prices from those Chinese.

- it is a kind of Red on Red type situation

But you have to jump in even when there was not need for you to make an unnecessary online argument.

This is my last post with you on this topic
 
HRK said:
Do you want me to put their financial transaction record on the forum ???

Deposit records and records of transfer of funds into the accounts of Pakistani personals who are close relatives of officials ???

What are you man ??? Are you even serious??? Just read your own post

And just as reminder again what was my post go read it again

- I never talked about CPEC, Defense Deals or any government to government contracts between Pakistan and China.

- I gave just a single example were a Chinese firms who is doing business 'exclusively' with other Chinese origin Individuals and business in Pakistan and is charging high prices from those Chinese.

- it is a kind of Red on Red type situation

But you have to jump in even when there was not need for you to make an unnecessary online argument.

This is my last post with you on this topic
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If I am a Chinese company selling tires or electric solar panels and I am charging more in Pakistan, that's not illegal or fraud. Every company does it to make sales. I've seen it in the US, Germany, China and India actually masters this art. Your post was left open, didn't mention a private Chinese business arrangement.

Now if this is CPEC, Defense and National purchases like the J-10C or PL-15, etc, that concept of "bribes" is false because there is a 3 tier system in place between both nations with over 100 people watching calculating, accounting, auditing. So this would hit some nerves of anyone who knows how its working. That's also why the Chinese members got upset.

But thanks for clarifying that you weren't talking about government to government national projects.

Bilal said:
Buddy, an advise if you take it. It’s not worth the effort. So ignore and don’t give the attention that is sought.
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Mr. Bilal - No attention is sought. If you make tall claims, you should be able to back it up with facts and proofs. Are we expected to nod like animals to whatever crap is posted by people?

This is an online forum for debate and discussions. If the rules say "you post and run" then we'll follow it. But I think the rules say "debate". So in that sense, one's that have some background, will ask questions, proofs, facts. That's you or I backing up our claim. Not "attention being sought".
 
Oscar said:
The J-10C was purchased on loans, as was JF-17 and every other Chinese procurement. That is the true attraction of all Chinese weapons systems for Pakistan.
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That's the key and luxury available to Pak military. Imagine even with loans we got only 20 J-10Cs. Chinese platforms are cheaper then western ones anyways.

It's almost impossible for us to get Eurofighters given the costs. Plus by all means J-10Cs have proved itself in recent event. Yes airforce training & tactics play a HUGE part but that alone cannot do much if fighter jet / missile combo is not at par.

IMO, JF-17 case is a bit different, the world was denying doors on us and PAF needed a sanction proof aircraft (consistent supply and in quantity). That platform has served us extremely well. Makes backbone of PAF today.
 
RajaBaja said:
Mr. Bilal - No attention is sought. If you make tall claims, you should be able to back it up with facts and proofs. Are we expected to nod like animals to whatever crap is posted by people?

This is an online forum for debate and discussions. If the rules say "you post and run" then we'll follow it. But I think the rules say "debate". So in that sense, one's that have some background, will ask questions, proofs, facts. That's you or I backing up our claim. Not "attention being sought".
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I’ll give it a try, though I myself advised against it.

You are spot on, you and all members have a right to disagree, ask counter questions and even disagree with the explanations given.

What is not right is how that disagreement and/or questions are put across. For instance, HRK was not even talking to you and while it’s well within your right to disagree. You replied to him not with a disagreement with mutual respect but added insult, by beginning your reply with “common man”. Insinuating that he is a common person of less knowledge and should listen to you, with you being in some sort position of power and authority over him.

This is a repeated theme in your posts. Respect is mutual. When you start with insult, expect escalation in kind.

Also like you pointed out. It’s an online forum, yes you can disagree and ask for clarifications. But remember, no one owes it to anyone. So the same can be asked with respect and there are plenty of examples where people do it and get the answers or clarifications.

But if you ask it in a way as if the other owes debt to you, that comes across as annoying and disrespectful. No one likes to engage with a quarrelsome person.
 
Bilal said:
I’ll give it a try, though I myself advised against it.

You are spot on, you and all members have a right to disagree, ask counter questions and even disagree with the explanations given.

What is not right is how that disagreement and/or questions are put across. For instance, HRK was not even talking to you and while it’s well within your right to disagree. You replied to him not with a disagreement with mutual respect but added insult, by beginning your reply with “common man”. Insinuating that he is a common person of less knowledge and should listen to you, with you being in some sort position of power and authority over him.

This is a repeated theme in your posts. Respect is mutual. When you start with insult, expect escalation in kind.

Also like you pointed out. It’s an online forum, yes you can disagree and ask for clarifications. But remember, no one owes it to anyone. So the same can be asked with respect and there are plenty of examples where people do it and get the answers or clarifications.

But if you ask it in a way as if the other owes debt to you, that comes across as annoying and disrespectful. No one likes to engage with a quarrelsome person.
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:) Bro - Common Man = "Come-On Man" like "are you serious". NOT common man like calling someone below average! It's a slang way of writing it. I guess I'll start to write the whole word if people are getting confused and thinking it's an insult when its not at all.

Secondly, take a look above. The SAME question I got upset on, made the Chinese members upset also. So it's not me. It was bad content put out insulting China and it's businessmen. Those wrong details that "China pays bribes" put in a very insulting manner made the Chinese members upset also. The member had to write an apology to them above.

Lastly, Pakistan comes first and should always for all of us. Pakistan is above our politics. Whether I am addressed or not, if I see a comment anywhere that seems to undermines Pakistan's national security (China-Pak agreements come under that), as a Pakistani, I have a right to ask questions on such sensitive issue.

Hopefully, I've explained myself so we can all chill and avoid these mistakes again.
 
RajaBaja said:
:) Bro - Common Man = "Come-On Man" like "are you serious". NOT common man like calling someone below average! It's a slang way of writing it. I guess I'll start to write the whole word if people are getting confused and thinking it's an insult when its not at all.

Secondly, take a look above. The SAME question I got upset on, made the Chinese members upset also. So it's not me. It was bad content put out insulting China and it's businessmen. Those wrong details that "China pays bribes" put in a very insulting manner made the Chinese members upset also. The member had to write an apology to them above.

Lastly, Pakistan comes first and should always for all of us. Pakistan is above our politics. Whether I am addressed or not, if I see a comment anywhere that seems to undermines Pakistan's national security (China-Pak agreements come under that), as a Pakistani, I have a right to ask questions on such sensitive issue.

Hopefully, I've explained myself so we can all chill and avoid these mistakes again.
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Lol, yes. That was a misunderstanding, next time use the full word or c’mon. 😂

I agree on the point that there is no need to press on this point of Chinese suppliers because there is no good outcomes of this debate and it’s just causing confusions, misunderstandings and misgivings with our Chinese friends on this forum.
 
arslank01 said:
So are you saying Chinese would never go out of their way to offer bribes in exchange for assured sales of their products?


Because i was approached by a "Mr Max"- obviously not his real name, but he ran the show at "Zhong Tian Guide Control Technology Company" offering me bribes in exchange for assured contracts in Pakistan and the Gulf.

View attachment 146577

Just in case you think im bullshitting...
View attachment 146578View attachment 146579
View attachment 146580


Was this him "adapting to realities" or dangling a carrot in front of any horse to see who would bite.
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very immature post. if you are chinese and you know that your past experience with almost any pakistani is that he will demand his cut. then ofcourse there will be salesman everywhere in the world who will approach a pakistani the same way in order to sell their products. why these chinese wont dare the same within china? or with foreign countries who are usually non corrupt? the salesman approach will be different then. Please due to our own incompetence dont blame others. put your house in order first and no you are not pro pakistani by putting blame of your own incompetence on others. I know many in government and in procurement they have made lush houses. almost everyone is corrupt their and for any government employ procurements are their top priority corruption thing.

End main aik request hai. there is no doubt in your knowledge and expertise and i learned alot from you here. but yaar aik hi jagah say hum ghareebon ko kuch mil raha aap wahan b aag laga rahay ho? esay na karo zara guzaro karo.. iss waqt agar us taraf maslay kuch hain b tau humain apna kaam nikalwana chahiye warna humari haalat bhtt patli hai.. na kuch banatay hain na hi paisay hain baahir say lainay kay?
 
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For all those who are suggesting diversification in a J-10C specific thread must take their debate to another relevent thread to keep this place clean. Last many pages were absoultely needless debate here though the meat of the argument was solid. I would request @arslank01 or @Lion to make a new thread then we can have a sober, serious, and well argued debate over the issue of diversification as it is important debate in context of national security.

I have few points to make regarding this debate but will not do it here. Let's keep this space for J-10CEs and furture strategy of PAF regarding this platform. How many PAF has planned, what are potential issues, how this program is going to impact JF-17 etc.

Thanks all.
 
Anti Chinese sentiment is running high day by day in this forum, be grateful J10c save your ass in the war against India, China doesn't own you anything.
you guys talking big here can't even save Imran Khan, and blame Chinese bribing your corrupted goverment officials who won't do shit before taking money, is it reasonable or not?
and Chinese government never say shit when current Pakistan goverment play double side. if China is to blame, then you have no friends.
 
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wanglaokan said:
Anti Chinese sentiment is running high day by day in this forum, be grateful J10c save your ass in the war against India, China doesn't own you anything.
you guys talking big here can't even save Imran Khan, and blame Chinese bribing your corrupted goverment officials who won't do shit before taking money, is it reasonable or not?
and Chinese government never say shit when current Pakistan goverment play double side. if China is to blame, then you have no friends.
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There is no anti Chinese sentiment in this thread they are just stating the truth Chinese companies are not above bribing to get contracts that doesn't mean it's the official position of the Chinese government but this is sort of standard across the global defense industry (and other sectors)
 
Toxic said:
There is no anti Chinese sentiment in this thread they are just stating the truth Chinese companies are not above bribing to get contracts that doesn't mean it's the official position of the Chinese government but this is sort of standard across the global defense industry (and other sectors)
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if Pakistani official don't take cut, why shall we offer it? and French don't bribe when they sell Rafale to India? and look at the price we sell J10c to Pakidtan, there is no room to bribe.
 
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