PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

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The JF-17 was developed to replace legacy platforms and meet or surpass capabilities of the F-16 Block 15's capabilities at that time. The Block 3 later was developed to surpass F-16 Block 52's capabilities and then came J-10CE which is arguably superior to the F-16 Block 70. Then it will be a JF-17 Block 4 to meet or surpass J-10CE's capabilities and then after inducting 1–2 J-35 squadrons and getting feedback from engineers working on KAAN in Turkiye, we will move ahead with the PFX 5th gen project.

Their is no Jf17 block 4 and PFX is 4.5th generation medium weight plane. Pakistan needs more J10CEs but it's Chinese plane and we cannot coproduce it, this is the reason for PFX, the 5th generation plane has not much information available on it.
 
If KAAN did not had engine issue it would be a good option too may be till 2035 they can resolve this issue.
Why would KAAN be a good option? It's a great option for Turkiye but Pakistan is in the middle of strategically aligning itself with China for the coming decades.

Who knows, in the future PAF might attack Central and Eastern India from Chinese air bases or China might sink Indian assets from Southern Pakistan. 🤔

Our military relationship with Turkiye is mainly for babysitting Middle Eastern Kingdoms and I don't see it expanding any more than that.
 
Why would KAAN be a good option? It's a great option for Turkiye but Pakistan is in the middle of strategically aligning itself with China for the coming decades.

Who knows, in the future PAF might attack Central and Eastern India from Chinese air bases or China might sink Indian assets from Southern Pakistan. 🤔

Our military relationship with Turkiye is mainly for babysitting Middle Eastern Kingdoms and I don't see it expanding any more than that.
No i am sure it Will grow at huge level it's in rising phase because turkey itself in rising phase in defense sector we will be getting pictures of there capabilities in next 10 to 12 years and i see no reason why pak won't take advantage of it. PN is already on-board with them new milden corvettes, JCF, subs upgrade they did too with them
 
No i am sure it Will grow at huge level it's in rising phase because turkey itself in rising phase in defense sector we will be getting pictures of there capabilities in next 10 to 12 years and i see no reason why pak won't take advantage of it. PN is already on-board with them new milden corvettes, JCF, subs upgrade they did too with them
In my humble opinion, all big items will come from China. Turkiye, Europe and others will provide some upgrades and sustainment programs for legacy platforms but Pakistan will try to keep pace with the Chinese to make sure it always has the latest and best that China can offer.
 
In one sentence: Pakistani President visits CAC.

BTW. The J-20 will be on display at the Changchun Air Show, allowing visitors to get up close and personal with the aircraft.
So, the Pakistani president is enjoying this privilege in advance...

Combined with previously revealed information, it's possible that CAC is developing a new version of the JF-17B (two-seat version) for Pakistan. It is likely that some of the J-20S's new tactical concepts will be transplanted to the new version of the JF-17B. Or, a new dedicated electronic warfare fighter could be developed for Pakistan based on the JF-17B platform, similar to the J-15D/J-16D but with slightly less power.
Slightly ?
I think most probable is the J-10C production line being moved to Pakistan so that AVIC has hands free for newer projects. As PAC has shown capability to manufacture with good quality and bring in orders from friendly countries...
 
I dunno about PAF having J-35s when India has no Su-57. China has no desire to needlessly piss off India. As long as India can be deterred from military action on Pakistan that achieves the objective. Pakistan and China's goal for Pakistan should be to develop its economy, make more people highly educated and wealthier. Defend itself at the highest end with nukes, defend against cruise missile, ballistic missile and drone attacks with the ability to hit back as hard. Defend against IAF with PAF. Defend against IN with asymmetric war and defend against Indian Army with artillery and PAF.

PAF just needs more J-10CE and ideally get China to integrate PL-17 for J-10CE. I suspect China has already done that. It's just an invisible small card up its sleeve.
All this is true till Israel enters the chat... J-35 is needed for countering possible Israeli F-35 deployments in India... Would China do the same for us if something like this happens ?.. or A squadron of preemptive purchased J-35s is better ? The economic burden of owning J-35s is great.. but loosing everything by not owning them is even a greater problem.
If a similar flood situation is created next year by India then we will have nothing but to go aggressive on their dam sites...
 
current finances make it improbable. Instead, attention is shifting to PFX Alpha, effectively a JF-17B4 in development. Pakistan has publicly signaled more indigenization, moving from the current roughly 60/40 (Pakistan/China) split towards in my opinion 80/20 on this program. It would probably have greater range, EW suite and payload than the JF-17B3 and it would be Pakistan’s answer to Rafale and Tejas Mk2.
There's no point in discussing PPT projects like the PFX/Alpha/JF-17B4 right now. We lack further publicly available information that can be confirmed.
To date, CAC/CATIC/AVIC, the other actual owners of the JF-17 program, have not released any information. We have also not seen any leaks.
Pakistan China relations are strong strategic brotherly relations.
Publicly, this argument holds true.
Practically, however, this view faces numerous obstacles. It could collapse at any moment.
The only reason Pakistan tries to work towards producing planes in Pakistan is to save cost ......
This is an absolutely wrong statement. You can try to do a serious analysis.
When it comes to fighter jet production costs, Pakistan has no chance of being cheaper than China.
PAC produces the JF-17. Because the PLAAF has no interest in purchasing it, CAC is not mass-producing it.
If PAC were to acquire the J-10CE production line, I guarantee the price it ultimately sells to the PAF would be significantly higher than what China sells it to. PAC's production costs would be even higher than the price China sells it to the PAF.
The same is applied with Turkey, we want to co produce many weapons and parts with them.
This problem is why China will not export advanced technology to Pakistan.
I think most probable is the J-10C production line being moved to Pakistan so that AVIC has hands free for newer projects. As PAC has shown capability to manufacture with good quality and bring in orders from friendly countries...
Moved?
There's no chance of that happening.
CAC recently relocated the J-10CE fighter production line from Chengdu to Guizhou. Officially, China has received orders for several J-10CE fighter......

At best, Pakistan could negotiate with China to acquire J-10CE assembly technology. CAC could build a new J-10CE assembly line in PAC. But this is a doomed investment. If Pakistan is truly willing to pay this substantial price, China likely won't stop it. However, China will not provide technology for any subsystems.
 
There is NO Official information released by China on the Prices of Chinese fighters - so everyone just speculates including these chinese members here claiming to know everything - which they obviously do not.
 
Why would KAAN be a good option? It's a great option for Turkiye but Pakistan is in the middle of strategically aligning itself with China for the coming decades.

Who knows, in the future PAF might attack Central and Eastern India from Chinese air bases or China might sink Indian assets from Southern Pakistan. 🤔

Our military relationship with Turkiye is mainly for babysitting Middle Eastern Kingdoms and I don't see it expanding any more than that.

To understand what "could" come to Pakistan, let's see our strategy.

1) Strategic partnership currently: China only. We are aligning with China's military structure for better coordination for our concerned areas.

2) Future strategic direction based on threat perception of Israel to us and to Turkey: This now includes Turkey and middle east also. So we'll make the Pakistani military interoperable with Turkey's.

This would mean that we will have some key weapons in Pakistan also. Namely KAAN + loyal wingman in the shape of Kizilelma or ANKA, etc and some air defense weapons in the future. These will come after 2030+ so by then, it's safe to assume these may be going through 6th gen prototyping or 5th gen+.

Current requirements: J-35's and J-10C's. We are looking at possibly a larger number of J-10C's. I know there is talks of moving it's assembly lines to Pakistan but I think we should buy from Chinese industrial base and setup rebuild, overhaul, customization factories here in Pakistan like we did to the Mirages.

JF-17 block III upgrades to all older models should happen and then the manufacturing line should go towards overhaul and enhancements also.

J-35's acquisition will be fast tracked per available options. Because soon enough, Israel will start its deployments of F-35's in India.

Ideally, like I've been discussing and @Michael confirmed that China is re-training our engineers, we should use China's research capability for PFX and work with them in partnership on a 5th gen single engine stealth design for our needs for manned and unmanned options. Over time a local industry can be established. This is critical for self reliance. We have far more capability now than when JF-17 was started. Thanks to China, we'll repeat that success with them for 5th gen platform.
 
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This is an absolutely wrong statement. You can try to do a serious analysis.
When it comes to fighter jet production costs, Pakistan has no chance of being cheaper than China.
PAC produces the JF-17. Because the PLAAF has no interest in purchasing it, CAC is not mass-producing it.
If PAC were to acquire the J-10CE production line, I guarantee the price it ultimately sells to the PAF would be significantly higher than what China sells it to. PAC's production costs would be even higher than the price China sells it to the PAF.

Many other reasons aswell, it builds local industry, you can build unlimited number of missiles, upgrade them yourself, expertise and the rest.

This problem is why China will not export advanced technology to Pakistan.

China does and will export advanced technology to Pakistan, J35 is latest Chinese technology and will be exported to Pakistan, aswell as advance missiles etc.

Despite what PDF members say, Pakistan and China has strategic military relations. People on PDF just like to complain about everything.

Pakistan also has close military relations with Turkey, we like to diverse our military technology, it's nothing against China and China doesn't mind this.
 
Many other reasons aswell, it builds local industry, you can build unlimited number of missiles, upgrade them yourself, expertise and the rest.
I'm not opposed to China providing Pakistan with the J-10CE ToT. My analysis is that the J-10CE assembly line and technology alone pose no threat to China's strategic security. In other words, China's State Administration of Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense (SASTIND) will not block the deal.

For CATIC, if it sells the J-10CE to the PAF as a whole, the PAF's purchase quantity will be limited. However, if it sells J-10CE components to PAC, with PAC independently producing some fuselage parts and final fighter assembly, the PAF's purchase quantity could at least double or triple. This would not affect CATIC's economic benefits and could even generate higher profits.

So, I wouldn't be surprised if that day ever comes.

However, China is unlikely to transfer the technology for core components (engines, radar, avionics, etc.), much less open the fighter's core source code. At most, China will allow it to be compatible with weapons payloads developed jointly by China and Pakistan or independently by Pakistan, but not with third-party payloads(Including weapons payloads from Pakistan and Türkiye).

For Pakistan, this is a deal destined to lose money. Given Pakistan's economic strength and production capacity, the final cost cannot be lower than CATIC's quotation. So, how will the costs of the production line and technology transfer be handled? CATIC cannot afford a second soft loan of more than a decade.
China does and will export advanced technology to Pakistan, J35 is latest Chinese technology and will be exported to Pakistan, aswell as advance missiles etc.
The original purpose of the FC-31/J-35 was to serve the international market. It has no necessary connection to China-Pakistan relations.
Based on official information, we can confirm that the FC-31/J-35 export version is a downgraded version of the J-35A Self-use version. It has been declassified.

As for the others, we can discuss them when they arrive in Pakistan. For now, everything is speculation.
Despite what PDF members say, Pakistan and China has strategic military relations. People on PDF just like to complain about everything.
Pakistan also has close military relations with Turkey, we like to diverse our military technology, it's nothing against China and China doesn't mind this.
We do not wish to interfere in the close relationship between Pakistan and Turkey. This is Pakistan's internal affairs.

However, Turkey's pan-Turkism poses a profound threat to China's national security. In recent years, Sino-Turkish relations have improved somewhat. However, the fundamental issues between us have not been resolved; they have merely been temporarily shelved. They could flare up again at any time. Based on the most basic national security strategy, we can engage in appropriate economic trade with Turkey. However, on the military level, especially in military technology, there is no basis for trust between the two sides.
There is also the US's military influence on Pakistan.

For ordinary Chinese, we are not opposed to our government providing Pakistan with cutting-edge military technology. Our real concern is Pakistan's inability to keep these technologies secret. This is due to both active and passive factors. Numerous countries hostile to China can easily infiltrate Pakistan's major confidential facilities. The widespread corruption in Pakistan is also an important channel for leaks.
 
I'm not opposed to China providing Pakistan with the J-10CE ToT. My analysis is that the J-10CE assembly line and technology alone pose no threat to China's strategic security. In other words, China's State Administration of Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense (SASTIND) will not block the deal.

For CATIC, if it sells the J-10CE to the PAF as a whole, the PAF's purchase quantity will be limited. However, if it sells J-10CE components to PAC, with PAC independently producing some fuselage parts and final fighter assembly, the PAF's purchase quantity could at least double or triple. This would not affect CATIC's economic benefits and could even generate higher profits.

So, I wouldn't be surprised if that day ever comes.

However, China is unlikely to transfer the technology for core components (engines, radar, avionics, etc.), much less open the fighter's core source code. At most, China will allow it to be compatible with weapons payloads developed jointly by China and Pakistan or independently by Pakistan, but not with third-party payloads(Including weapons payloads from Pakistan and Türkiye).

For Pakistan, this is a deal destined to lose money. Given Pakistan's economic strength and production capacity, the final cost cannot be lower than CATIC's quotation. So, how will the costs of the production line and technology transfer be handled? CATIC cannot afford a second soft loan of more than a decade.

The original purpose of the FC-31/J-35 was to serve the international market. It has no necessary connection to China-Pakistan relations.
Based on official information, we can confirm that the FC-31/J-35 export version is a downgraded version of the J-35A Self-use version. It has been declassified.

As for the others, we can discuss them when they arrive in Pakistan. For now, everything is speculation.

We do not wish to interfere in the close relationship between Pakistan and Turkey. This is Pakistan's internal affairs.

However, Turkey's pan-Turkism poses a profound threat to China's national security. In recent years, Sino-Turkish relations have improved somewhat. However, the fundamental issues between us have not been resolved; they have merely been temporarily shelved. They could flare up again at any time. Based on the most basic national security strategy, we can engage in appropriate economic trade with Turkey. However, on the military level, especially in military technology, there is no basis for trust between the two sides.
There is also the US's military influence on Pakistan.

For ordinary Chinese, we are not opposed to our government providing Pakistan with cutting-edge military technology. Our real concern is Pakistan's inability to keep these technologies secret. This is due to both active and passive factors. Numerous countries hostile to China can easily infiltrate Pakistan's major confidential facilities. The widespread corruption in Pakistan is also an important channel for leaks.

Your concerns are valid at the end. These technologies are top secret. I have a feeling that if we can make super special arrangement for the F-16 block 52's, which to me is old tech, 30 year old technology, we can do a LOT more to ensure confidentiality of the cutting edge 5th gen tech from China.

Because this will be our national security for say 15-20 years to come. China is the largest tech dominated nation now, you guys will probably be at Gen 7 already in 15 years. But Pakistan's smaller economy and financials will keep her on 5th gen+ for a long time to come. So the tech will have to be guarded like our own children if you will. So all legit concerns.

Well, I have something to ask, what are your take on Pakistan getting an export version for a single engine customized J-20? Like I've been saying in my posts previously?

China is on Silicon Carbide technology for it's 5th gen radars and sensors. So if our version of this single engine J-20 is given with Gallium Nitride tech, we'll be a generation behind China's top technology while still having more room for much more advancement.
 
Well, I have something to ask, what are your take on Pakistan getting an export version for a single engine customized J-20? Like I've been saying in my posts previously?
China is on Silicon Carbide technology for it's 5th gen radars and sensors. So if our version of this single engine J-20 is given with Gallium Nitride tech, we'll be a generation behind China's top technology while still having more room for much more advancement.
To sum it up in one sentence: "You have no money!"
 
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