PAF J-35AE - News, Updates and Discussions

[MastanKhan]

It'll be the export version, I guarantee it.

Hi,

Me face to face with a US army major longtime ago---a cobra pilot---" pakistani cobras are more advanced than the US---".

Many a european nations would have more advanced F35's than the US air force---depending on the date of delivery---.

Does anyone believe that azeris bought a export version---or any other nation wanting an "export" version---.

It is a pakistani misnomer that export versions are inferior---.

 

[Michael]

@TAC @Yasser76 @That_Guy

There are detailed legal provisions on China's arms exports, and you can consult the relevant laws, which are all public documents.
Let me make some brief explanations:
The classification levels of China's weapons information are roughly differentiated as follows:

1. Top secret. They are developed and directly controlled by the military's direct scientific research organizations.​

2. Classified. They are developed by scientific research institutes of military industrial enterprises. But, the departments holding these secrets are managed by military representatives assigned by the PLA.​

3, Secret. They are developed and directly controlled by the scientific research organizations of the military industrial enterprises. In accordance with the secrecy law, they are secured by the internal security departments of the military industrial enterprises.​

In the export of weapons systems.

The top secret part is absolutely forbidden to export​

The classified part is decided by the PLA whether it can be exported or not​

The secret parts are exported at the discretion of the military industrial enterprises.​

For example: combat command systems

1. The encryption and communication command module, which is identical to the PLA, is top secret. They are removed from the export system and replaced with modules that can be exported.​

2, Command links and information nodes in the system, are classified. They can be exported with PLA approval. However, their manufacturing technology and core code cannot be exported.​

3, The related combat units can be exported at will. However, their communication links with the combat command system and related information node modules will be removed or replaced.​

It is true that Pakistan has a lot of special status in Sino-Pakistani military trade cooperation, but they remain within Chinese law.

For example: KLJ-7A radar
It was first publicly unveiled at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow. However, Pakistan approached this radar at a very early stage.
The following is a compilation of memories recorded by engineers at the 14th Research Institute of CETC:

2003. Early work on research related to this radar began to start​

2008. Hotel bombings take place in Islamabad. At that time, the Chinese engineers were working on test flights at a base in Pakistan and were not staying in the hotel.​

2009. A team of engineers from the 14th Research Institute was stationed in a Pakistani factory to officially carry out the batch co-production of this radar in Pakistan.​

2011. Osama bin Laden was killed and Taliban forces threatened to retaliate. As the Taliban base is not far from the factory, the Chinese engineer team was closed in the factory for three months for safety.​

From this information we can see that Pakistan had already started mass production of the KLJ-7A radar when others knew about it. This is the special position of Pakistan.

But, everything is based on Chinese law.

When Pakistan procures Chinese weapons, the specific choices are made by the Pakistani military based on its own circumstances. There is no such thing as downgrading or reducing the configuration of the weapon systems they use with the PLA's own.
The 054AP is more capable than the 054A and of course more expensive.
The 99AE is a foreign trade enhanced version of the 99A. The Chinese military industrial enterprises can further enhance the 99AE if the customer is willing to spend more money.
But the top secret parts inside these weapon systems are not exported.

 

[That_Guy]

@TAC @Yasser76 @That_Guy

There are detailed legal provisions on China's arms exports, and you can consult the relevant laws, which are all public documents.
Let me make some brief explanations:
The classification levels of China's weapons information are roughly differentiated as follows:

1. Top secret. They are developed and directly controlled by the military's direct scientific research organizations.​

2. Classified. They are developed by scientific research institutes of military industrial enterprises. But, the departments holding these secrets are managed by military representatives assigned by the PLA.​

3, Secret. They are developed and directly controlled by the scientific research organizations of the military industrial enterprises. In accordance with the secrecy law, they are secured by the internal security departments of the military industrial enterprises.​

In the export of weapons systems.

The top secret part is absolutely forbidden to export​

The classified part is decided by the PLA whether it can be exported or not​

The secret parts are exported at the discretion of the military industrial enterprises.​

For example: combat command systems

1. The encryption and communication command module, which is identical to the PLA, is top secret. They are removed from the export system and replaced with modules that can be exported.​

2, Command links and information nodes in the system, are classified. They can be exported with PLA approval. However, their manufacturing technology and core code cannot be exported.​

3, The related combat units can be exported at will. However, their communication links with the combat command system and related information node modules will be removed or replaced.​

It is true that Pakistan has a lot of special status in Sino-Pakistani military trade cooperation, but they remain within Chinese law.

For example: KLJ-7A radar
It was first publicly unveiled at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow. However, Pakistan approached this radar at a very early stage.
The following is a compilation of memories recorded by engineers at the 14th Research Institute of CETC:

2003. Early work on research related to this radar began to start​

2008. Hotel bombings take place in Islamabad. At that time, the Chinese engineers were working on test flights at a base in Pakistan and were not staying in the hotel.​

2009. A team of engineers from the 14th Research Institute was stationed in a Pakistani factory to officially carry out the batch co-production of this radar in Pakistan.​

2011. Osama bin Laden was killed and Taliban forces threatened to retaliate. As the Taliban base is not far from the factory, the Chinese engineer team was closed in the factory for three months for safety.​

From this information we can see that Pakistan had already started mass production of the KLJ-7A radar when others knew about it. This is the special position of Pakistan.

But, everything is based on Chinese law.

When Pakistan procures Chinese weapons, the specific choices are made by the Pakistani military based on its own circumstances. There is no such thing as downgrading or reducing the configuration of the weapon systems they use with the PLA's own.
The 054AP is more capable than the 054A and of course more expensive.
The VT-4 is a foreign trade enhanced version of the 99A. The Chinese military industrial enterprises can further enhance the VT-4 if the customer is willing to spend more money.
But the top secret parts inside these weapon systems are not exported.

So basically I'm right.

 

[MastanKhan]

So basically I'm right.

Hi,

NO----.

 

[Michael]

So basically I'm right.

Uh, I'm not sure what you're referring to here. But what I'm trying to convey seems to be the exact opposite of what you're saying.

Pakistan absolutely goes for substandard of less power version, not because it wants to but rather because that's all anyone (especially China) is willing to sell Pakistan.
You have always said it, and it has always been false.
Take the PL-15E, which is a downgraded version of the PL-15. Pakistan inducted the PL-15E, because that was all China was willing to give Pakistan.

Here's your original text. I understood it to mean that you thought it was China that was unwilling to export more capable weapon systems to Pakistan.
But that is not actually the case.
1, the top secret information about China's military equipment focuses on the parts related to PLA's own C4ISR. These are the parts that no country would ever export their own systems for their own use. The exported equipment will use other modules instead.
2, High-end modules directly related to weapon performance, their manufacturing technology and core code are not exported, but their finished products are exportable.
3. All Chinese arms exports are subject to Chinese law. For weapons systems that seriously affect the balance of power in a region and those that exceed international law agreements, performance restrictions will be imposed before they are exported.

It is not that China is unwilling to export more powerful weapons systems to Pakistan. More often than not, it is the result of choices made by the Pakistani military based on its own circumstances.

Regarding the PL-15E, you need to look into the actual operation of the “290KM rule”. It's an obscure topic and I can't state it directly.

Regarding J-10CE, it is clear that it is more capable than J-10C.

These are two completely opposite points of view. Your point is that China is not willing to give, my point is that it is Pakistan's own choice. It's not the same thing.

 

[SABRE]

Regarding the PL-15E, you need to look into the actual operation of the “290KM rule”. It's an obscure topic and I can't state it directly.
------
These are two completely opposite points of view. Your point is that China is not willing to give, my point is that it is Pakistan's own choice. It's not the same thing.

1. 290km rule? Are you referring to the MTCR guideline? In that case, it is just a norm that most countries simply tend to follow, predominantly because of the American pressure. However, the MTCR is an informal arrangement and its guidelines/rules are non-binding, meaning there are no [legal] repercussions for its violations, except for the American sanctions. Moreover, China as well as Pakistan are not members of the MTCR. The only reason China abides by the MTCR guidelines is that the Americans insisted in the 1990s that it follows them if it wanted to enter into bilateral economic and technological cooperation in other areas. The Americans believed that China and North Korea might be the major sources for missile proliferation in the developing world. Although, China has come a long way in styling itself as an economic and technological power in its own right, for one reason or the other it publicly continues to assert that it abides by the guidelines. What happens behind the curtain is a guess work. We agree, rather strongly, that the PL-15 Pakistan has is 'export' version but there is no way to ascertain if any special provisions were made for the range, unless Pakistan shoots down an Indian aircraft at say 200km distance with clear evidence available to prove that.

2. There are certain technologies/capabilities that Pakistan has acquired from other friendly countries and some that it is developing on its own - Chinese assistance cannot be ruled out but the ownership claim to these capabilities is of Pakistan's - which it often tends to - or aims to - incorporate on Chinese platforms. Of course, in such cases it foregoes analogous systems/technologies/capabilities from China.

 

[Yasser76]

@TAC @Yasser76 @That_Guy

There are detailed legal provisions on China's arms exports, and you can consult the relevant laws, which are all public documents.
Let me make some brief explanations:
The classification levels of China's weapons information are roughly differentiated as follows:

1. Top secret. They are developed and directly controlled by the military's direct scientific research organizations.​

2. Classified. They are developed by scientific research institutes of military industrial enterprises. But, the departments holding these secrets are managed by military representatives assigned by the PLA.​

3, Secret. They are developed and directly controlled by the scientific research organizations of the military industrial enterprises. In accordance with the secrecy law, they are secured by the internal security departments of the military industrial enterprises.​

In the export of weapons systems.

The top secret part is absolutely forbidden to export​

The classified part is decided by the PLA whether it can be exported or not​

The secret parts are exported at the discretion of the military industrial enterprises.​

For example: combat command systems

1. The encryption and communication command module, which is identical to the PLA, is top secret. They are removed from the export system and replaced with modules that can be exported.​

2, Command links and information nodes in the system, are classified. They can be exported with PLA approval. However, their manufacturing technology and core code cannot be exported.​

3, The related combat units can be exported at will. However, their communication links with the combat command system and related information node modules will be removed or replaced.​

It is true that Pakistan has a lot of special status in Sino-Pakistani military trade cooperation, but they remain within Chinese law.

For example: KLJ-7A radar
It was first publicly unveiled at the 2016 Zhuhai Airshow. However, Pakistan approached this radar at a very early stage.
The following is a compilation of memories recorded by engineers at the 14th Research Institute of CETC:

2003. Early work on research related to this radar began to start​

2008. Hotel bombings take place in Islamabad. At that time, the Chinese engineers were working on test flights at a base in Pakistan and were not staying in the hotel.​

2009. A team of engineers from the 14th Research Institute was stationed in a Pakistani factory to officially carry out the batch co-production of this radar in Pakistan.​

2011. Osama bin Laden was killed and Taliban forces threatened to retaliate. As the Taliban base is not far from the factory, the Chinese engineer team was closed in the factory for three months for safety.​

From this information we can see that Pakistan had already started mass production of the KLJ-7A radar when others knew about it. This is the special position of Pakistan.

But, everything is based on Chinese law.

When Pakistan procures Chinese weapons, the specific choices are made by the Pakistani military based on its own circumstances. There is no such thing as downgrading or reducing the configuration of the weapon systems they use with the PLA's own.
The 054AP is more capable than the 054A and of course more expensive.
The 99AE is a foreign trade enhanced version of the 99A. The Chinese military industrial enterprises can further enhance the 99AE if the customer is willing to spend more money.
But the top secret parts inside these weapon systems are not exported.

Interesting post, thank you

 

[Michael]

1. 290km rule? Are you referring to the MTCR guideline? In that case, it is just a norm that most countries simply tend to follow, predominantly because of the American pressure. However, the MTCR is an informal arrangement and its guidelines/rules are non-binding, meaning there are no [legal] repercussions for its violations, except for the American sanctions. Moreover, China as well as Pakistan are not members of the MTCR. The only reason China abides by the MTCR guidelines is that the Americans insisted in the 1990s that it follows them if it wanted to enter into bilateral economic and technological cooperation in other areas. The Americans believed that China and North Korea might be the major sources for missile proliferation in the developing world. Although, China has come a long way in styling itself as an economic and technological power in its own right, for one reason or the other it publicly continues to assert that it abides by the guidelines. What happens behind the curtain is a guess work. We agree, rather strongly, that the PL-15 Pakistan has is 'export' version but there is no way to ascertain if any special provisions were made for the range, unless Pakistan shoots down an Indian aircraft at say 200km distance with clear evidence available to prove that.

You need to look into the actual operation of the “290KM rule”.
This statement has a very deep meaning when it comes to China's export of weapons systems.
You have only elaborated on its surface meaning. You're not understanding what it really means.
Due to my Chinese identity, I cannot explain it in detail for you. You can only understand its profound meaning in other ways.

2. There are certain technologies/capabilities that Pakistan has acquired from other friendly countries and some that it is developing on its own - Chinese assistance cannot be ruled out but the ownership claim to these capabilities is of Pakistan's - which it often tends to - or aims to - incorporate on Chinese platforms. Of course, in such cases it foregoes analogous systems/technologies/capabilities from China.

I totally agree and support it.
Pakistan has every right to choose its weapon systems according to its national needs and to develop its own military industry.
This is Pakistan's internal affair. One of the core principles of China's foreign policy is non-interference in the internal affairs of other countries.
But, we also need to take into account China's realities when it comes to China-Pakistan military trade cooperation. These acts of military trade cooperation cannot violate Chinese law and Chinese national strategy.

Interesting post, thank you

Chinese public opinion is now very open. A lot of things have been revealed about those engineers back then, after the secrecy period has passed. There are very many interesting stories of this kind on Chinese social media.

 

[TAC]

Uh, I'm not sure what you're referring to here. But what I'm trying to convey seems to be the exact opposite of what you're saying.

Here's your original text. I understood it to mean that you thought it was China that was unwilling to export more capable weapon systems to Pakistan.
But that is not actually the case.
1, the top secret information about China's military equipment focuses on the parts related to PLA's own C4ISR. These are the parts that no country would ever export their own systems for their own use. The exported equipment will use other modules instead.
2, High-end modules directly related to weapon performance, their manufacturing technology and core code are not exported, but their finished products are exportable.
3. All Chinese arms exports are subject to Chinese law. For weapons systems that seriously affect the balance of power in a region and those that exceed international law agreements, performance restrictions will be imposed before they are exported.

It is not that China is unwilling to export more powerful weapons systems to Pakistan. More often than not, it is the result of choices made by the Pakistani military based on its own circumstances.

Regarding the PL-15E, you need to look into the actual operation of the “290KM rule”. It's an obscure topic and I can't state it directly.

Regarding J-10CE, it is clear that it is more capable than J-10C.

These are two completely opposite points of view. Your point is that China is not willing to give, my point is that it is Pakistan's own choice. It's not the same thing.

Many thanks for all the details and clarification, much appreciated.

 

[Zarvan]

They are not different, and you saying otherwise just proves my point that Pakistanis are suckers. China has zero respect for Pakistan precisely because of this mentality.

You just proved you have absolutely no idea how Pakistan and China work and how their relationship work. You are so delusional that you are ready to believe that China works like USA, that first Pakistan will show intent then China would approve a deal, Chinese parliament will approve the deal like USA congress then things will start happening. O bhai which world you live in? This is China not USA, Pakistan was working with China for really long time for J-10 when it was announced, Pakistan was working to induct J-10 years before that. Same is taking place with J-31. PAF chief announced the induction of J-31 this year's January, but work started on its years ago. China doesn't have to tell its people about every weapon sale like USA. China and Pakistan are totally different ball game as compared to USA and Pakistan. From USA every weapon which we induct are known years before they come to Pakistan that deal is made when it comes to China several times weapons were already inducted and all of a sudden, they were shown in some parade or exercise. Even VT 4 the day we announced its induction wasn't the day we received it. It was received and fully operational at least 4 months before that.

 

[Ak01]

if a psychiatrist saw this thread, half of the posters would be diagnosed with schizophrenia.

 

[Hussain]

That is exactly what was happening. China Pakistan relations are way different. If you haven't understood this basic fact than you will keep having disastrously wrong assumptions.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing.......

 

[Hussain]

Sorry, disagree with this. I know about the apparently downgraded PL-15 but personally don’t believe it. I think that was done just to avoid setting off too many alarm bells in the US / India. Can you name any other product that PAF bought from China that was a downgraded version. On the contrary, in most cases PAF has requested specific enhancements before buying.

People are either too biased, or incompetent to realize, the Blk52's delivered in 2010, and those that made them famous in 2019, had a lot of h/w added. So your logic, in my opinion holds true. Understandably, a lot is kept out of the public eye....

 

[Hussain]

You just proved you have absolutely no idea how Pakistan and China work and how their relationship work. You are so delusional that you are ready to believe that China works like USA, that first Pakistan will show intent then China would approve a deal, Chinese parliament will approve the deal like USA congress then things will start happening. O bhai which world you live in? This is China not USA, Pakistan was working with China for really long time for J-10 when it was announced, Pakistan was working to induct J-10 years before that. Same is taking place with J-31. PAF chief announced the induction of J-31 this year's January, but work started on its years ago. China doesn't have to tell its people about every weapon sale like USA. China and Pakistan are totally different ball game as compared to USA and Pakistan. From USA every weapon which we induct are known years before they come to Pakistan that deal is made when it comes to China several times weapons were already inducted and all of a sudden, they were shown in some parade or exercise. Even VT 4 the day we announced its induction wasn't the day we received it. It was received and fully operational at least 4 months before that.

Some people on this thread wouldn't be able to find their rear ends with flood lights on, they keep on talking about theoretical BS, not applicable in the real world....

Since PA decided to focus on numbers, and postpone, new tech with teething issues, they got a down graded version? Ask that moron, has he ever even seen the outside of a Haider tank, up close, forget even sitting in it?

Ignore their clueless rants and move on....

 

[That_Guy]

You just proved you have absolutely no idea how Pakistan and China work and how their relationship work. You are so delusional that you are ready to believe that China works like USA, that first Pakistan will show intent then China would approve a deal, Chinese parliament will approve the deal like USA congress then things will start happening. O bhai which world you live in? This is China not USA, Pakistan was working with China for really long time for J-10 when it was announced, Pakistan was working to induct J-10 years before that. Same is taking place with J-31. PAF chief announced the induction of J-31 this year's January, but work started on its years ago. China doesn't have to tell its people about every weapon sale like USA. China and Pakistan are totally different ball game as compared to USA and Pakistan. From USA every weapon which we induct are known years before they come to Pakistan that deal is made when it comes to China several times weapons were already inducted and all of a sudden, they were shown in some parade or exercise. Even VT 4 the day we announced its induction wasn't the day we received it. It was received and fully operational at least 4 months before that.

I do know what I'm talking about.

You however have been proven wrong almost everytime.

Where did I bring up the USA? You're creating a strawman to argue with.

Seriously, there is a limit to how delusional one can be.

China's relationship with Pakistan isn't all that special; Pakistanis like to pretend otherwise, but China thinks of Pakistan as a useful sucker.