PAF SAM based Air Defense System - News, Discussion & Updates

FuturePAF said:
It is derived from the CIWS on ships, intended for the terminal defense of high value targets. I agree the first line of defense will have to be systems like the HQ-19 and HQ-9B, with possibly the IRIS-T SLX or equivalent in the mid course, then HQ-17 and then finally these short range systems for anything that gets through. Pakistan may not go for a Gatling gun system like this one, there are many commentators saying Pakistan prefers a twin auto-cannon option. Let’s see what Pakistan procures.
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A better system for what you are suggesting is, CRAM (counter rocket, artillery and mortar). Under "Rocket", it covers any object in the terminal phase, NOT hypersonic or high supersonic because they'll move faster than its computer can calculate. But the rest of traditional terminal stage warheads.

We need a CRAM at every base and other sensitive locations. Best to buy a few with full price, and pay for TOT to mass produce it locally.
 
FuturePAF said:
It is derived from the CIWS on ships, intended for the terminal defense of high value targets. I agree the first line of defense will have to be systems like the HQ-19 and HQ-9B, with possibly the IRIS-T SLX or equivalent in the mid course, then HQ-17 and then finally these short range systems for anything that gets through. Pakistan may not go for a Gatling gun system like this one, there are many commentators saying Pakistan prefers a twin auto-cannon option. Let’s see what Pakistan procures.
Click to expand...
Auto cannon variants have programmable bullets similar to timed fuse or proximity fuse and some area effect so direct hit is not necessary. They are pretty effective at close ranges. The problem is tracking very low flying drones and saturation attacks.

Programmable bullets example below but I am not sure about a saturation attack and how many targets this radar-eoptical combination can track and engage at the same time.

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Another option is multiple electro optical night vision equipped vehicles that make the tracking after the radar gives them the targets position.

Also cannons engage from very close ranges like 2-3kms it is miss and get hit type of situation. A laser guided sam can get the target by itself and launched in salvos it only needs a vehicle that paints the target from higher ranges like 8-10km
 
vizier said:
Auto cannon variants have programmable bullets similar to timed fuse or proximity fuse and some area effect so direct hit is not necessary. They are pretty effective at close ranges. The problem is tracking very low flying drones and saturation attacks.

Programmable bullets example below but I am not sure about a saturation attack and how many targets this radar-eoptical combination can track and engage at the same time.

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Another option is multiple electro optical night vision equipped vehicles that make the tracking after the radar gives them the targets position.

Also cannons engage from very close ranges like 2-3kms it is miss and get hit type of situation. A laser guided sam can get the target by itself and launched in salvos it only needs a vehicle that paints the target from higher ranges like 8-10km
Click to expand...


This is a variant of what's traditionally considered a CRAM system. Drones are now included in the coverage. High explosive round discharge fragments hit the drone and damage it, bringing it down. Pakistan can build these locally. Many countries, including China, Germany and few others are building these systems. We should only get these systems with TOT and mass produce.
 
RajaBaja said:
This is a variant of what's traditionally considered a CRAM system. Drones are now included in the coverage. High explosive round discharge fragments hit the drone and damage it, bringing it down. Pakistan can build these locally. Many countries, including China, Germany and few others are building these systems. We should only get these systems with TOT and mass produce.
Click to expand...
In addition to programmable bullets for longer ranges infrared guided or laser guided short range anti air missiles can be used as well. If everything including the missile guidance is dependant on the radar in a jamming environment and low flying sarturating high number of targets it is not sufficient as we see in modern conflicts.

Infrared is better for high speed targets like cruise missiles and anti radar missiles and it is fire and forget without the need of continious illumination tracking of the target. Anza manpad can be converted or its seeker can be installed to a newer surface to air missile for this job.

Smaller slow flying drones dont emit much infrared to lock on so either a radar needs to guide all missiles which is risky and insufficient as we see in Ukraine-Russia conflict or independant electro-optical laser designator vehicles can get the info from the radars and track the targets individually launching laser guided missiles. It is not much different from laser guided anti tank missiles but installed on a faster light weight surface to air missile. Burq laser atgm seeker can be modified-installed on a short range surface to air missile to do the job.

Sam can be similar to this one or some sidewinder missile derivative can be used.
en.wikipedia.org

RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
vizier said:
In addition to programmable bullets for longer ranges infrared guided or laser guided short range anti air missiles can be used as well. If everything including the missile guidance is dependant on the radar in a jamming environment and low flying sarturating high number of targets it is not sufficient as we see in modern conflicts.

Infrared is better for high speed targets like cruise missiles and anti radar missiles and it is fire and forget without the need of continious illumination tracking of the target. Anza manpad can be converted or its seeker can be installed to a newer surface to air missile for this job.

Smaller slow flying drones dont emit much infrared to lock on so either a radar needs to guide all missiles which is risky and insufficient as we see in Ukraine-Russia conflict or independant electro-optical laser designator vehicles can get the info from the radars and track the targets individually launching laser guided missiles. It is not much different from laser guided anti tank missiles but installed on a faster light weight surface to air missile. Burq laser atgm seeker can be modified-installed on a short range surface to air missile to do the job.

Sam can be similar to this one or some sidewinder missile derivative can be used.
en.wikipedia.org

RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...

CRAM's core focus is blast fragmentation munitions like the one's you posted above. RIM or RAM (rolling airframe missiles) are essentially used for an advance CIWS, usually coupled with a Gatling gun. Both do the job. Budget and quantity become the main factor.

Also, there is no system out there that runs on Infrared search 24-7. Traditional radars pass on incoming target locations to optical systems nearby that they use IR sensors to track on short ranges and take those down. Pakistan's majority Manpads also have IR seekers. But for us, we need CRAM type systems and with TOT for mass production.
 
vizier said:
Auto cannon variants have programmable bullets similar to timed fuse or proximity fuse and some area effect so direct hit is not necessary. They are pretty effective at close ranges. The problem is tracking very low flying drones and saturation attacks.

Programmable bullets example below but I am not sure about a saturation attack and how many targets this radar-eoptical combination can track and engage at the same time.

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


Another option is multiple electro optical night vision equipped vehicles that make the tracking after the radar gives them the targets position.

Also cannons engage from very close ranges like 2-3kms it is miss and get hit type of situation. A laser guided sam can get the target by itself and launched in salvos it only needs a vehicle that paints the target from higher ranges like 8-10km
Click to expand...

CIWS are for terminal defense as a target closes in on that target, not an area target. So if a gun based system is used, it will be the last layer, and a Hail Mary system.
 
FuturePAF said:
CIWS are for terminal defense as a target closes in on that target, not an area target. So if a gun based system is used, it will be the last layer, and a Hail Mary system.
Click to expand...
Yes it is the last layer of defense like 2km effective range and even with programmable bullets that is a high risk. That is why I also mentioned laser guided short range sam system would be effective against slow flying drones that have low infrared signature. Radar based shorad can do all of the job scanning-tracking-guiding clos missiles to all targets like Pantsyr-Tor systems but once their radars are saturated or in a heavy clutter jamming environment a radar based system misses a lot as we see examples in Ukraine-Russia war.
A radar vehicle can do the scanning and alert-que other electro optical - infrared tracker- missile launcher vehicles for short range defense against drones and similar low profile threats. Otherwise it is a complementary system but it is necessary to protect static positions against kamikaze drones like airbases or temporarily at positions where medium-long range air defense sams(Hq-16-19 and others) are deployed.
In case of glide bombs the problem is the reaction time as it glides down towards the target faster than the mentioned drone drone swarm attack it needs less reaction time to counter so a radar based clos missile-gun system suits better. Glide bomb does not use low altitude cover like kamikaze drones so radar can track them at higher altitudes and ranges . There are news that Ukraine combined a radar with aa gun to take down several Russian glide bombs. Missiles would be more effective though for a future anti glide bomb system.
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Glide bombs, Drones and Aircraft these require different strategies to counter effectively. One system that is jack of all trades can counter all these in a limited way but is inferior to a specialised air defense system.

Anti radar missiles and cruise missiles are other threats in the list. They are faster but shiny on the infrared spectrum so infrared guided missiles coupled with a radar vehicle can do the job effectively against them.
 
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