Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[Yasser76]

To be honest even in proper war 20 or 30 are enough because it was first dog fight and it is shift towards kill chain etc. The new era is more towards drone, electronic warfare, blastic missiles, icbm etc.

Air defense plays the most critical role in todays warfare which we need to improve on.

India would never or even Pak would never be flying full stock in other countries and target it as war will be mainly towards Kashmir, Punjab and Rajistan.

I am unsure, if it goes full on for 2 weeks at high temp we have to take into account losses, aircraft servicablity as engines and other parts quickly need replacing or overhaul after extreme use, and also pilot fatigue.

All this is much easier to deal with shoulkd we have large numbers. May not be an issue with J-10s as China can very quickly "tweak" it's J-10Cs to J-10CP standard and deliver them in an emergency, we have no luxury like that with J-17C

 

[Ali_Baba]

rd93 and ws13 are basically identical, they were described to me as being similar to just variations of eachother, like how the PAF operates multiple variants of the Wopen 13 on the F7.

So im guessing JF-17s going forward, but also to replace older JF-17 engines

but as i said, trials arent complete yet, but nearly!

If the WS13 does not offer more thrust, or fuel efficiency or cost benefits, then logically wouldn't Pakistan be better off purchasing more RD-93 engines if availability is not an issue, as the value add for the WS-13(E/X) does not exist relative to the cost of inducting a new engine(though based on the RD-93 series) type and its associated support infrastructure.

The WS-19 would be ideal to re-engine the fleet as the commonality it will offer to the J-35AE engines if the additional thrust requirements does not require changes to the FCS/FBW of the platform( though the higher cost of the WS-19 is a significant issue for induction ).

 

[Ak01]

cost of inducting a new engine(though based on the RD-93 series) type and its associated support infrastructure.

thats the point that was made to me, that the costs are marginal, plus, as i mentioned before, paf's rd93 shop is a jugaad of chinese and pak reverse engineering, its not an official licensed facility so there are some difficulties there too

ws13e will give a performance bump, also, probably have some degree of commonality with the j35 engines etc, i just see it as our version of the RD93MA

 

[Yasser76]

Less and less reliance on Russia is good for us

 

[Ali_Baba]

thats the point that was made to me, that the costs are marginal, plus, as i mentioned before, paf's rd93 shop is a jugaad of chinese and pak reverse engineering, its not an official licensed facility so there are some difficulties there too

ws13e will give a performance bump, also, probably have some degree of commonality with the j35 engines etc, i just see it as our version of the RD93MA

interesting, but aside from my assumption on WS-19 pricing(based on a comment made on this forum by a Chinese member), any reason why they couldn't re-engine the JF17 with the WS-19? ie technical limitations? You would assume that the engine has a much longer lifespan than the WS-13 being a newer design, and therefore it could see out the remainder of the JF17 airframe lifespan and then be potentially available as a source, or as spare engine for the J-35A fleet ?

To me, logically ( with the limited information I have ), the WS-19 makes more logical sense to me from a strategic perspective. Given that the engine is now equipping the J-35A fleet and there is capacity for sales of the J-35A to Pakistan ( and others ), production capacity should not be the problem.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Less and less reliance on Russia is good for us

if you look at how they behave with Iran for the supply of weapons, their reliability is questionable for sure. They did help Pakistan with the RD-93 engines, but only after declining the more powerful AL-31 engines under Indian pressure, that Pakistan wanted at the time. Imagine the JF17 as a platform with that engine, it would have been far more capable. So, strategically, they are susceptible to Indian pressure and therefore not good to rely on for supplies.

 

[Yasser76]

if you look at how they behave with Iran for the supply of weapons, their reliability is questionable for sure. They did help Pakistan with the RD-93 engines, but only after declining the more powerful AL-31 engines under Indian pressure, that Pakistan wanted at the time. Imagine the JF17 as a platform with that engine, it would have been far more capable. So, strategically, they are susceptible to Indian pressure and therefore not good to rely on for supplies.

Yup, and soon Russia itself will rely on Chinese....

 

[Ali_Baba]

Yup, and soon Russia itself will rely on Chinese....

At some point, they will need to put their "pride" away, and come to the realisation that they can't do all that they once did before because their economy cannot support it, and also because their industrial might and technology is no longer competitive(ie bordering on obsolete ).

The UK report of finding valves, and not solid state electronics in the Su-35S at the start of the Ukrainian war when they inspected a downed Russian Su35S was quite telling.

There is not much that Pakistan now needs or wants from Russia, compared to a few years ago for the PAF. There is value in a large airframe that the Su35 offers that allows for large payloads, range(to strike targets in Mumbai etc) and the ability to pack lots of avionics/EW capabilities, but in the era of stealth optimised platforms and now the "rocket force" for Pakistan, that value add is not as significant to Pakistan as it once was.

 

[Yasser76]

At some point, they will need to put their "pride" away, and come to the realisation that they can't do all that they once did before because their economy cannot support it, and also because their industrial might and technology is no longer competitive(ie bordering on obsolete ).

The UK report of finding valves, and not solid state electronics in the Su-35S at the start of the Ukrainian war when they inspected a downed Russian Su35S was quite telling.

Yup, SU-57, their attempt at 5th Gen,, is essentially 4.5th Gen. They have no 6th Gen projects or new gen engines lined up. I really think that Russia reached its zenith with SU-30 and T-90 when it comes to tech. Tech wise they are simply standing still, which basically means falling behind US and China.

Europe facing same problem but not as severe.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Yup, SU-57, their attempt at 5th Gen,, is essentially 4.5th Gen. They have no 6th Gen projects or new gen engines lined up. I really think that Russia reached its zenith with SU-30 and T-90 when it comes to tech. Tech wise they are simply standing still, which basically means falling behind US and China.

Europe facing same problem but not as severe.

Bad news for India since they still rely on Russia, good news for China and Pakistan.

 

[Michael]

If the WS13 does not offer more thrust, or fuel efficiency or cost benefits, then logically wouldn't Pakistan be better off purchasing more RD-93 engines if availability is not an issue, as the value add for the WS-13(E/X) does not exist relative to the cost of inducting a new engine(though based on the RD-93 series) type and its associated support infrastructure.

Forget about the WS-13 engine; it's discontinued.

Currently, China's only military medium-thrust turbofan engines are the WS-21 and WS-19.
Some media outlets or military enthusiasts incorrectly refer to the WS-21 engine as WS-13E/X. If you mean it, the code needs to be corrected.

interesting, but aside from my assumption on WS-19 pricing(based on a comment made on this forum by a Chinese member), any reason why they couldn't re-engine the JF17 with the WS-19? ie technical limitations? You would assume that the engine has a much longer lifespan than the WS-13 being a newer design, and therefore it could see out the remainder of the JF17 airframe lifespan and then be potentially available as a source, or as spare engine for the J-35A fleet ?

To me, logically ( with the limited information I have ), the WS-19 makes more logical sense to me from a strategic perspective. Given that the engine is now equipping the J-35A fleet and there is capacity for sales of the J-35A to Pakistan ( and others ), production capacity should not be the problem.

Again, the WS-19 engine is not exported. This ban comes from AECC.

According to reliable inside information, CATIC has been trying to lobby AECC to agree to export the WS-19 engine, but has encountered strong opposition. The strongest opposition comes from the chief designer of the WS-19 engine. The core reason is that the WS-19 engine contains a large number of original, classified core technologies derived from the WS-15 engine.

The export version of the J-35 series fighter jet has been confirmed to use the WS-21 engine, not the WS-19 engine. The WS-19 engine version of the J-35 fighter jet is for PLA use only.
======================================
In the current environment, if the JF-17 series fighter jets are to replace the RD-93 engine, then the WS-21 engine is the best and only option.

 

[Ak01]

the WS-19 makes more logical sense to me from a strategic perspective.

you have to remember, the WS-13 is and has been very heavily pushed onto the PAF by China, as always, a big part of this equation is always looking at what options are available to us, what options align with the commercial interests of the oem and also what happens if we dont play ball.

ws-13 was developed with jeff in mind, so if we dont bite, the chinese sunk millions into a project with no customer, however, the chinese have every ability to force it down a customers throat if they want to, which is partially also whats happening here, not to say its necessarily a bad thing, the paf has been receptive this time.

paf relies heavily on ukraine for rd93 support actually, not russia, and well, we see the state of ukraine.

 

[Toxic]

@Ak01 what do you think the PAF plans are beyond the erieye? Are they planning to go for the global eye Or Chinese perhaps even some indigenous system? Also do they plan to acquire more EW global 6000s?

 

[Ali_Baba]

@Ak01 what do you think the PAF plans are beyond the erieye? Are they planning to go for the global eye Or Chinese perhaps even some indigenous system? Also do they plan to acquire more EW global 6000s?

Given how easy it is for PAF to get AEW&Cs from Sweden and China, and the number they have right now, I can't see this being much of a priority for now given all other demands the PAF has such as replacement of the F7PGs, and Mirages.

 

[Ak01]

@Ak01 what do you think the PAF plans are beyond the erieye? Are they planning to go for the global eye Or Chinese perhaps even some indigenous system? Also do they plan to acquire more EW global 6000s?

i dont really think its high on the priority list at the moment.

id be surprised if the PAF did not decide to MLU erieyes under the table with sweden in some form.

I know NASTP has an AEW roadmap, but its unrealistic and no groundwork has been laid. AEW systems are typically long term investments (look at the E3), i think the erieye will stay for the time being