Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[AeronautIR]

Haven’t seen a discussion on the subject of replacing Mirage III/ Vs and F7s in PAF inventory.

Mirages are really old and must be difficult to maintain. F7s also don’t have much relevance in current scenario.

Can’t any of these be replaced by JF-17s? The current Block III capacity at PAC isn’t being utilised fully and can be used to either shore up or replace few older variants/types.

It is a genuine query and I request a positive discussion on this. Please don’t bring IAF into this.

I am actually astonished by your statement. The JF-17 project's main aim was to replace all 3rd gen fighters of PAF like F-7, Mirage and A-5. In total, there were 18 squadrons of these aircraft in 2010. Now, only 3 F-7PG and 3 upgraded Mirage squadrons left in PAF.

 

[Vkdindian1]

They are being replaced by JF-17 squadrons

It appears to be at a lower rate than the production capacity of the PAC.

There is a talk of upgrading the Mirages. Upgrade means future availability of atleast a decade. With a capacity of 20+ JF-17s at PAC all MiG21s as well as Mirages can be replaced well before that.

 

[Fatman17]

It appears to be at a lower rate than the production capacity of the PAC.

There is a talk of upgrading the Mirages. Upgrade means future availability of atleast a decade. With a capacity of 20+ JF-17s at PAC all MiG21s as well as Mirages can be replaced well before that.

Replacement is based on need and the budget. Furthermore the JF-17 is now attracting potential foreign orders. So I'm quite sure that a production plan is being charted out with the help of China to meet both domestic and foreign obligations. Recently a JF-17 Block III squadron has been inducted in the PAF inventory. This induction was delayed because of the Azerbaijan order for the JF-17 Thunder. I'm sure delivery deadlines will improve.

 

[Vkdindian1]

Paf has a large stockpile of trained pilots and parts for both mirage and f-7 fleets to keep them operational.

There is bound to be adequate number of pilots as well as other support to keep them going. I am sure that those pilots would be happy to fly newer gen aircraft. Even maintenance wise, JF would be much easier.

Mirages are still valuble assets for hauling a lot of even mordern munitions as seen with meanwhile f-7s are actually not that old as the pg models currently in service were only delivered in early 2000s but despite wvr limitations they are still very useful for LIFT and backline air defence roles.

JFs can be better and do more than any of these. F-7s Infact aren’t very well suited in LIFT. The cockpit layout and modern system wise they are far behind.

It is not entirely feasible for PAF to fully replace nearly 5 squadrons of legacy aircaft with new build B3 in a short timeframe on simply a cost basis.

That seems to be a feasible explanation.

Once these orders further materialise i believe PAC will slowly ramp up production further to meet these needs as currently there is not enough consistent demand/capital.

Such orders have always a big “IF” associated with them. Linking the upgrade of your own forces to export is unlikely to be the way PAF would be thinking. I have always considered them very good regarding how they have planned the force structure as well as the mix.

We also dont know what pfx alpha contains and if the paf is waiting for that to develop further before investing further. Another big reason is paf may be looking to invest into more f-16,j10 and j35 to replace the fleet partially rather than go all in on more jft

PFX is only a paper exercise. PAC doesn’t have wherewithal to undertake a project of this nature. Even if they start now it would take at least a decade plus to start production. Unless a collaboration with China is done, similar to JF-17s.

Probably an aircraft with higher weight class and weapon carriage would be a big consideration. An aircraft that not only carries more wins but also has longer range that can make it useful over seas also.

In total, there were 18 squadrons of these aircraft in 2010. Now, only 3 F-7PG and 3 upgraded Mirage squadrons left in PAF.

I wasn’t talking about the past. I was asking about the way ahead from here. 6 squadrons is a big number. Why not replace them with far better aircraft available easily rather then try and upgrade them at a fairly high cost and time?

 

[AeronautIR]

I wasn’t talking about the past. I was asking about the way ahead from here. 6 squadrons is a big number. Why not replace them with far better aircraft available easily rather then try and upgrade them at a fairly high cost and time?

The way ahead is J-35. 2 of these 6 squadrons are OCU, 2 in CCS. Just 1 each with combat role and they will not be upgraded.

 

[Ali_Baba]

View attachment 178717

MashAllah. Ho gai research?

Far to clean/sterile an environment for anything real or valuable to be happening! Which engineer sits wearing a full suit while working?

 

[rafale]

Paf has a large stockpile of trained pilots and parts for both mirage and f-7 fleets to keep them operational. If needed they can be kept in service for another decade but both platforms will likely be retired from combat roles pre 2030. Mirages are still valuble assets for hauling a lot of even mordern munitions as seen with meanwhile f-7s are actually not that old as the pg models currently in service were only delivered in early 2000s but despite wvr limitations they are still very useful for LIFT and backline air defence roles. It is not entirely feasible for PAF to fully replace nearly 5 squadrons of legacy aircaft with new build B3 in a short timeframe on simply a cost basis. And the fact is the jf-17 production line is being primarily catered to export customers first. Once these orders further materialise i believe PAC will slowly ramp up production further to meet these needs as currently there is not enough consistent demand/capital. We also dont know what pfx alpha contains and if the paf is waiting for that to develop further before investing further. Another big reason is paf may be looking to invest into more f-16,j10 and j35 to replace the fleet partially rather than go all in on more jft

There has been some really interesting videos coming out of Ukraine......Ukrainian pilots in M2Ks and F-16s targeting Shahed drones and other air flying missiles using IR missiles.

Pretty neat and F-7PGs, if they have life left in them, can be used in similar roles. Why waste or expire all those older AIM-9 and PL series IR missiles? Can be used to hunt Harpy/Harop type UAVs.....

 

[Fatman17]

There has been some really interesting videos coming out of Ukraine......Ukrainian pilots in M2Ks and F-16s targeting Shahed drones and other air flying missiles using IR missiles.

Pretty neat and F-7PGs, if they have life left in them, can be used in similar roles. Why waste or expire all those older AIM-9 and PL series IR missiles? Can be used to hunt Harpy/Harop type UAVs.....

F-7PGs are good for point defence role. Just reducing the numbers.

 

[Fatman17]

 

[Ak01]

Haven’t seen a discussion on the subject of replacing Mirage III/ Vs and F7s in PAF inventory.

Mirages are really old and must be difficult to maintain. F7s also don’t have much relevance in current scenario.

Can’t any of these be replaced by JF-17s? The current Block III capacity at PAC isn’t being utilised fully and can be used to either shore up or replace few older variants/types.

It is a genuine query and I request a positive discussion on this. Please don’t bring IAF into this.

the amounts of F-7s and Mirages in PAF inventory is typically really overblown.

This is a double edged sword however, because it does mean depleting numbers.

Though, id argue, depleting numbers are better than forcing old aircraft to carry on, its a resource burner.

Most F-7s and Mirages are lifex. Its becoming quite difficult to support them now, even F-7 spare flow is quite tough. We dont have exact numbers, but id expect between the two types, there to not be more than a few squadrons left.

I expect the PAF to have to pick up more F-16s at some point, whether new, or used, it makes sense and would be quite a wise decision to re equip guys like the Arrows, Griffins and Falcons with the newer airframes and pass down the older ones to the mirage/F-7 guys. Then for the leftover squadrons, id once again expect some to be re equipped with JF-17 MLU's, while the other JF-17 sqns get reequipped with the newer, more capable airframes, or even J-10s etc.

Though, the Mirages are very strike oriented assets, so i would also not be surprised if the Mirage squadrons received some older hand me downs to keep them running, until an eventual FGFA replaces them and they get re equipped for their deep strike role.

 

[Ak01]

Even maintenance wise, JF would be much easier.

You say this, but ALOT of PAF rd93 support comes from ukraine, now obviously, with the war things have gotten far more difficult. Same story for all russian kit in Pakistan, im sure India is also feeling the stretch here.

The Chinese engine is in final stages of trials anyway, maybe theyre even complete by now, i never asked again, but i dont think the RD93 will stay for much longer. Its been a very difficult platform to sustain during all of this conflict.

 

[hasssanali8998]

FGFA

whats this btw .

 

[Ak01]

whats this btw .

fifth gen fighter aircr

 

[Ak01]

Pretty neat and F-7PGs, if they have life left in them, can be used in similar roles. Why waste or expire all those older AIM-9 and PL series IR missiles? Can be used to hunt Harpy/Harop type UAVs.....

not very cost effective.

Ukraine can do this because they're being bankrolled.

You're probably talking between 8-10,000/ flight hour in costs for the F7PG.

Plus lets say something like 100-200k/PL-5.

Youve got an unsustainable cost per intercept.

Particularly as those airframes become more and more unflyable.

Better solution is ground launching them like the houthis and indians do.

 

[Vkdindian1]

You say this, but ALOT of PAF rd93 support comes from ukraine, now obviously, with the war things have gotten far more difficult. Same story for all russian kit in Pakistan, im sure India is also feeling the stretch here.

The Chinese engine is in final stages of trials anyway, maybe theyre even complete by now, i never asked again, but i dont think the RD93 will stay for much longer. Its been a very difficult platform to sustain during all of this conflict.

Is Chinese engine so close in design that it can replace RD?

My understanding is that a fighter is built around an engine and a change of engine would require a complete redesign.
This is not only due to size but also various controls and interfaces that may not fit into a fighter that easily. You are an experienced hand and would know all this in any case.

The possibility of waiting it out till FGFA is finalised, also seems quite plausible. In the meanwhile the PAC capacity can keep working to replace the older versions of JF or to meet export commitments as and when deals are signed.