Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[puttputt]

Yes, they would say no to Typhoons. I don't understand your thinking or logic, as it makes no sense what so ever. Pakistan is not going to take a loan of $10billion to then take another for $10 billion to buy Typhoons, that makes no sense what so ever.

I was asking if the EU offered a $10 bn loan to buy combat aircraft from them, you're saying AHQ would politely say "no?" AHQ saying no to loans for big-ticket acquisitions? Lol, ok. AHQ will buy from whoever the fk offers them a loan, that's always been the case since day one lol.

we had a role in USSR Afghanistan war where USSR was not over direct neighbor.. going against china with 10b loan? i would say if even they gave 100 billion free we should not do it let aside loan

You do realize we stood against the USSR because of US economic and military aid, right? Did you forget about the 40 F-16s? If we're given $100 billion for free, we'll take it and side with whoever gave it to us.

Anyways, not sure why selecting the Typhoon over J-35AE suddenly means dropping 5th gen for 4.5+ gen. We don't even know what the realistic timeline is for procuring J-35AE, for one thing, and second, pursuing Typhoon could align with the pathway into KAAN.

 

[Ak01]

I was asking if the EU offered a $10 bn loan to buy combat aircraft from them, you're saying AHQ would politely say "no?" AHQ saying no to loans for big-ticket acquisitions? AHQ will buy from whoever the fk offers them a loan, that's always been the case since day one lol.

The bold part looks like it was written by a one-legged recently neutered cat with Down syndrome, but "if even they gave 100 billion free, we should not do it" makes me lol. The Pakistani government will take $100 billion for free, don't worry.

Anyways, not sure why selecting the Typhoon over J-35AE suddenly means dropping 5th gen for 4.5+ gen. We don't even know what the realistic timeline is for procuring J-35AE, for one thing, and second, pursuing Typhoon could align with the pathway into KAAN.

i remember when the PAF wanted to integrate Eurojet's onto jf-17. A typhoon deal if structured well by the PAF could be HUGELY beneficial for PAC, whether its a modernisation of cabailities and integration into Airbus supply chain, or even assistance with further development of JF-17 with it being upgraded and more free of strings

 

[puttputt]

i remember when the PAF wanted to integrate Eurojet's onto jf-17. A typhoon deal if structured well by the PAF could be HUGELY beneficial for PAC, whether its a modernisation of cabailities and integration into Airbus supply chain, or even assistance with further development of JF-17 with it being upgraded and more free of strings

I don't recall the EJ200 stuff aside from forum rumours. The main thing we tried and almost did was integrating Thales RDY-3, TopOwl-F, and MBDA MICA-IR/RF to the JF-17 back in Block-1 or Block-2 days. However, the French didn't want to extend the loan for that to happen and some other issues (namely their pivot to India) scuttled the program.

OTOH, Leonardo did offer us the Grifo-E and Vixen 1000E AESA radars for the JF-17 Block-3. We couldn't take them up on it because there was no compatible BVRAAM for us to leverage with it and the Chinese said "no" to integrating theirs to a Western radar.

Now, if the Turks are moving in on customizing a Typhoon build with their own AAM, PGB, and SOW load, that could get interesting. In this context, the Typhoon can become that adept air-to-air and air-to-surface asset for the PAF. Imagine having the option of using a solid motor plus two ramjet-powered BVRAAMs from one platform -- insane.

Yes, this would mean pushing the FGFA dream out a bit further, but it also gives a clear pathway to replacing the F-16s with a contemporary and forward/future-friendly fighter. Once a FGFA option is pursued (e.g., KAAN), that FGFA would operate with the Typhoons.

 

[SABRE]

Only a crazy man would select a 4.5 gen non-stealth platform over a stealth platform ...

The era of new procurements of the Typhoon/F16 jets for the PAF is over. The next stop for the PAF is more J10CE's, possibly JF17 Block 4 ( PFX-Alpha) if that project works out, and the wait for the J-35A followed by the Kaan.

I agree. But things need to be put into context.

As things are now, it will make strategic and financial sense for air forces to continue acquiring/operating 4.5-generation non-stealth fighters even if they manage to induct 5th-generation stealth aircraft. This will reconcile the trade off between quality and quantity. 5th gen stealth aircraft are costly to procure, operate, and maintain compared to 4.5 gen, which offer relatively higher sortie rates, lower operating costs, and day-to-day availability. 4.5 gen aircraft would constitute the backbone of air forces like PAF.

Having said that, it appears that preferences on aircraft acquisition within the PAF’s have evolved. Officers traditionally inclined toward American or Western platforms no longer seem to have the same level of influence as they did before, while proponents of Chinese systems have gained greater leverage. The current leadership also appears to have greater comfort with and confidence in Chinese-origin platforms than before. But this doesn't mean they cannot be enticed by the Western technologies.

IMO, I believe J-35A would be inducted but KAAN is iffy. First, there is the issue of GE engine reexport approval by the US. Turkish-origin engine can only counted as a factor once it comes into existence and operation. Second, it needs to be seen how the aircraft would fit in to PAF's ecosystem. Third, it further needs to be seen if PAF has the financial and resource capacity to operate two 5th gen. platforms.

 

[puttputt]

I agree. But things need to be put into context.

As things are now, it will make strategic and financial sense for air forces to continue acquiring/operating 4.5-generation non-stealth fighters even if they manage to induct 5th-generation stealth aircraft. This will reconcile the trade off between quality and quantity. 5th gen stealth aircraft are costly to procure, operate, and maintain compared to 4.5 gen, which offer relatively higher sortie rates, lower operating costs, and day-to-day availability. 4.5 gen aircraft would constitute the backbone of air forces like PAF.

Having said that, it appears that preferences on aircraft acquisition within the PAF’s have evolved. Officers traditionally inclined toward American or Western platforms no longer seem to have the same level of influence as they did before, while proponents of Chinese systems have gained greater leverage. The current leadership also appears to have greater comfort with and confidence in Chinese-origin platforms than before. But this doesn't mean they cannot be enticed by the Western technologies.

IMO, I believe J-35A would be inducted but KAAN is iffy. First, there is the issue of GE engine reexport approval by the US. Turkish-origin engine can only counted as a factor once it comes into existence and operation. Second, it needs to be seen how the aircraft would fit in to PAF's ecosystem. Third, it further needs to be seen if PAF has the financial and resource capacity to operate two 5th gen. platforms.

I agree. But a decisive factor in tilting us towards the Chinese was the unavailability of Western goods and the lack of financing mechanisms for such acquisitions. Neither will be as much of an issue going forward, especially Western Europe, which is seeking to build scale in its defence industry. If the Eurofighter Consortium came up to AHQ's door tomorrow and offered a $10 billion loan for a potential Typhoon deal, I doubt AHQ would look the other way. AHQ doesn't say "no" to a nice loan.

What could happen is that they leverage financing from both (West and China) to build their ideal architecture. So, in that context, the PAF may try building that 4.5 and 5-gen offensive combo via the Typhoon and a Chinese NGFA. But technically, Typhoon and J-35AE (IMO) would overlap as they share comparable specifications (aside from J-35AE's stealth characteristics, both are twin-engine, 24-27-ton fighters). So, if a new 4.5-gen 24-27-ton fighter comes, then the PAF would want a 32+ ton NGFA.

OTOH, if the PAF genuinely believes in the J-35AE, then it ought to try getting the J-16 as well. It'll be difficult to pull off stealth fighter-led ops without a good 4.5-gen workhorse to follow up with, especially for offensive ops. The US pairs F-35s with F-15s and F/A-18s, while the PLAAF and PLAN can leverage their Flankers.

 

[SABRE]

I agree. But a decisive factor in tilting us towards the Chinese was the unavailability of Western goods and the lack of financing mechanisms for such acquisitions. Neither will be as much of an issue going forward, especially Western Europe, which is seeking to build scale in its defence industry. If the Eurofighter Consortium came up to AHQ's door tomorrow and offered a $10 billion loan for a potential Typhoon deal, I doubt AHQ would look the other way. AHQ doesn't say "no" to a nice loan.

This is why I wrote "But this doesn't mean they cannot be enticed by the Western technologies" in the last line of my second paragraph.

 

[puttputt]

This is why I wrote "But this doesn't mean they cannot be enticed by the Western technologies" in the last line of my second paragraph.

The problem is we can likely see the FGFA path, but that key follow-on mechanism via a good payload-delivery horse 4.5-gen platform is hard to come by. It's insane how there aren't that many options for it.

Ideally, we'd get the J-16 packaged in with the J-35AE, but for whatever reason China's not interested in exporting its Flankers. So, Option 2 may be to rework the J-10CE into a strike-beater that can load heavyweight munitions without cutting into its range and endurance.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Only a crazy man would select a 4.5 gen non-stealth platform over a stealth platform ...

The era of new procurements of the Typhoon/F16 jets for the PAF is over. The next stop for the PAF is more J10CE's, possibly JF17 Block 4 ( PFX-Alpha) if that project works out, and the wait for the J-35A followed by the Kaan.

My 3 Js wish list.
(Just for shughal mela)

Pakistan Air Force: The Perfect 500 Jians

Type​	Aircraft​	Quantity​
Light Combat​	JF-17 Thunder​	250​
Multi-Role​	J-10 Indus Dragon​	150​
Air-Superiority​	J-35​	100​

 

[Ali_Baba]

My 3 Js wish list.
(Just for shughal mela)

Pakistan Air Force: The Perfect 500

Type​	Aircraft​	Quantity​
Light Combat​	JF-17 Thunder​	250​
Multi-Role​	J-10 Indus Dragon​	150​
Air-Superiority​	J-35​	100​

My generic list is :

Type​	Aircraft​	Quantity​
Light Combat​	JF-17 Thunder​	180​
Multi-Role​	J-10 Indus Dragon​	80​
Light Combat	JF17 PFX-Alpha	50

Type​	Aircraft​	Quantity​
Long Range Strike​	Kaan​	40​
Air-Superiority​	J-35​	80​
SEAD/DEAD​	Kizilelma​	80​

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

... Let me frame it this way... If tomorrow the US and EU approve a $10 bn defence loan to Pakistan, would the PAF say "no" to Typhoons? Set aside our personal views and ask what AHQ would do. Just to be real, but when our senior leaders retire, they don't move to Shanghai, they go to London and their kids go to USA/Canada. Just saying.

Get Uncle Sam to release those AH-1Zs and authorise engines for T-129 ATAKs first, then you can dream about US gifting $10 billion to Pakistan to buy Typhoons.

Does PAF seem desperate to get it's hands on Typhoons, Rafales or Gripens? Are they somehow expected to perform better than J-10Cs?

 

[Michael]

My 3 Js wish list.
(Just for shughal mela)

Pakistan Air Force: The Perfect 500 Jians

Type​	Aircraft​	Quantity​
Light Combat​	JF-17 Thunder​	250​
Multi-Role​	J-10 Indus Dragon​	150​
Air-Superiority​	J-35​	100​

I can guarantee that your wish will never come true.

China's arsenal is developing too rapidly.

Soon, you won't be so fond of the J-10CE and J-35 anymore. In just a few years, even more "new toys" will appear on your wish list.

 

[puttputt]

Get Uncle Sam to release those AH-1Zs and authorise engines for T-129 ATAKs first, then you can dream about US gifting $10 billion to Pakistan to buy Typhoons.

Does PAF seem desperate to get it's hands on Typhoons, Rafales or Gripens? Are they somehow expected to perform better than J-10Cs?

Was it you who suggested Pak double down on exporting people as a way to get remittances?

Before barking up America, why don't your babus find a new source of ForEx (other than IMF and Gulf money) to bankroll your imports?

Big time talker against the West, but totally depends on the West to directly or indirectly finance government operations and imports from China. If not for IMF money or Gulf money, we wouldn't have a year-to-year budget to buy arms from China. But of course, economics and multi-layered thinking aren't a strong point for you babus, hence the situation we're dealing with today.

PS: US didn't block the AH-1Zs, but Pakistan's ability to use FMF or CSF funds to finance them (same for F-16C/Ds). The T129s got blocked because the PAA wouldn't go ahead with buying the AH-1Z. Now, if the argument is about America refusing to honour the CSF/FMF, that's one thing and fair. But that hasn't been stopping the PN from importing ITAR-bound engines for the MILGEMs or even NESCOM from using ITAR-bound inputs for some of its solutions.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

... You do realize we stood against the USSR because of US economic and military aid, right? ...

I think Pakistan had gone in head first against the Soviets because it wanted to take revenge for the 1971 war.

The US had initially asked Pakistan not to fight the USSR and instead offered to help Pakistan seal the border with Afghanistan.

Pakistan said nope, and the US joined Pakistan more than a year later. Overtime 118 other countries joined in the war effort.

 

[puttputt]

I think Pakistan had gone in head first against the Soviets because it wanted to take revenge for the 1971 war.

The US had initially asked Pakistan not to fight the USSR and instead offered to help Pakistan seal the border with Afghanistan.

Pakistan said nope, and the US joined Pakistan more than a year later. Overtime 118 other countries joined in the war effort.

Babu, did you forget about the US Mutual Defence Agreement (MDA) signed back in 1952? We literally built our military using that money on the implicit and explicit condition of standing against the Soviets. That's why we had a CIA reconnaissance base in Peshawar. We advocated for F-104s on the grounds of intercepting Soviet bombers, not downing Indian Vampires.

Following the Cuban Missile Crisis, the expectations on that front relaxed, and we built ties with the USSR, leading to aid, such as PSM in 1973. So, this bit about "taking revenge for 1971" is a lie to cover the beghairati of you babus because you literally took money from them 2 years after the war (to build an albatross even though, prior to that, we had an industrial base capable of steel output that you babus gutted with nationalization).

Like, if you're going to narrate a false story to cover the beghairat truth, at least make it consistent and coherent..

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Was it you who suggested Pak double down on exporting people as a way to get remittances? ...

I don't think so, but it's a good idea to whoever suggested it, I second that. I think India received around $130 billion in remittances last year. But anyway...