Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[rafale]

Same way F-16 turned PAF from a South Asian version of the RAF into a modern air force, watch how J-35 turns us into a top 10 tier air force. I mean it, we will be in the top 10 in terms of training, experiance, integration and finally equipment.

You will be looking at a force that can defend against 5th Gen attack and will have regional strike capabilities. PAF will go from a local air force to a regional one, capabilities the IAF will simply not have.

Both these two events, F-16 in early 80s and J-35 soon will put us in seperate leagues to our neighbours

One problem I see with PAF getting the J-35 is that it will provide the Chinese same leverage as the Americans had over F-16s.

Cripple this crucial technology/system by sanctions or not providing support, and you take out the spear from Pakistan.

For example, what if Pakistan decides to use J-35 to bomb India at will? Using its LO features, Pakistan can unilaterally take strike missions. Take out S-400 preemptively and thereby starting a war. Would China want that?

India pulled off operation sindoor out of its ass. There was and is no evidence of Pakistan's involvement in the terrorist attack. That damaged their credibility and improved Pakistan's credibility. If that case was to be again, China by all means will fully support Pakistan.

But if Pakistan starts using Latest Chinese tech and causing regional imbalance, then China may not be too pleased.

Regardless of how obsolete or weak Israeli enemies are, Israel still runs each and every campaign in undertakes in the region through US. Without US blessing, they are nothing.

Which is why i believe Pakistan is taking its time to finalize the J-35/KJ500/HQ19 package......and also keeping other options open, like Turkish AD and KAAN. In that case, Turkey wouldn't give two shits about India.

This is a big problem.

 

[Ali_Baba]

One problem I see with PAF getting the J-35 is that it will provide the Chinese same leverage as the Americans had over F-16s.

Cripple this crucial technology/system by sanctions or not providing support, and you take out the spear from Pakistan.

For example, what if Pakistan decides to use J-35 to bomb India at will? Using its LO features, Pakistan can unilaterally take strike missions. Take out S-400 preemptively and thereby starting a war. Would China want that?

India pulled off operation sindoor out of its ass. There was and is no evidence of Pakistan's involvement in the terrorist attack. That damaged their credibility and improved Pakistan's credibility. If that case was to be again, China by all means will fully support Pakistan.

But if Pakistan starts using Latest Chinese tech and causing regional imbalance, then China may not be too pleased.

Regardless of how obsolete or weak Israeli enemies are, Israel still runs each and every campaign in undertakes in the region through US. Without US blessing, they are nothing.

Which is why i believe Pakistan is taking its time to finalize the J-35/KJ500/HQ19 package......and also keeping other options open, like Turkish AD and KAAN. In that case, Turkey wouldn't give two shits about India.

This is a big problem.

Every platform will have the limitation that the selling country can impose conditions and restrictions. Even Türkiye! That is a reality that Pakistan has lived with and will have to live with new procurements until it can fix its education and manufacturing, R&D capabilities to be able to build its own platforms at own.

 

[Corax]

One problem I see with PAF getting the J-35 is that it will provide the Chinese same leverage as the Americans had over F-16s.

Cripple this crucial technology/system by sanctions or not providing support, and you take out the spear from Pakistan.

For example, what if Pakistan decides to use J-35 to bomb India at will? Using its LO features, Pakistan can unilaterally take strike missions. Take out S-400 preemptively and thereby starting a war. Would China want that?

India pulled off operation sindoor out of its ass. There was and is no evidence of Pakistan's involvement in the terrorist attack. That damaged their credibility and improved Pakistan's credibility. If that case was to be again, China by all means will fully support Pakistan.

But if Pakistan starts using Latest Chinese tech and causing regional imbalance, then China may not be too pleased.

Regardless of how obsolete or weak Israeli enemies are, Israel still runs each and every campaign in undertakes in the region through US. Without US blessing, they are nothing.

Which is why i believe Pakistan is taking its time to finalize the J-35/KJ500/HQ19 package......and also keeping other options open, like Turkish AD and KAAN. In that case, Turkey wouldn't give two shits about India.

This is a big problem.

Why would the Chinese object to the PAF bombing india? If anything, they'd probably welcome it.

Aside from that, unless we can develop everything we want ourselves, we'll always have to make compromises to access technology and capabilities that we need, it's that simple. Back in the 80s, we paid a heavy price to access the Viper, and even then we didn't even get BVR. When it came to Block 52s, we again had to compromise with US oversight, and if my memory serves me correctly, we didn't even get something like DRFM capability.

We get better access to high tech capabilities with the Chinese, but there's still compromises to be made, although arguably less so than the US, and at least no sanctions like those the US imposed.

So it's either make compromises to gain access to the tech and capabilities we need, or make the stuff ourselves, and I ain't holding out on the latter option anytime soon.

 

[Yasser76]

One problem I see with PAF getting the J-35 is that it will provide the Chinese same leverage as the Americans had over F-16s.

Cripple this crucial technology/system by sanctions or not providing support, and you take out the spear from Pakistan.

For example, what if Pakistan decides to use J-35 to bomb India at will? Using its LO features, Pakistan can unilaterally take strike missions. Take out S-400 preemptively and thereby starting a war. Would China want that?

India pulled off operation sindoor out of its ass. There was and is no evidence of Pakistan's involvement in the terrorist attack. That damaged their credibility and improved Pakistan's credibility. If that case was to be again, China by all means will fully support Pakistan.

But if Pakistan starts using Latest Chinese tech and causing regional imbalance, then China may not be too pleased.

Regardless of how obsolete or weak Israeli enemies are, Israel still runs each and every campaign in undertakes in the region through US. Without US blessing, they are nothing.

Which is why i believe Pakistan is taking its time to finalize the J-35/KJ500/HQ19 package......and also keeping other options open, like Turkish AD and KAAN. In that case, Turkey wouldn't give two shits about India.

This is a big problem.

Of course, there is always that, but that is a political angle, I am looking at this simply in terms of how a system with transform PAF

 

[rafale]

Of course, there is always that, but that is a political angle, I am looking at this simply in terms of how a system with transform PAF

Bhai, the day J-35s arrive, it is game over for India.

no wonder they are rushing here and there to get stuff inducted. J-35s will change the game unless until India gets a true stealth, which might be not any time before PAF grinds them to pieces.

 

[Michael]

One problem I see with PAF getting the J-35 is that it will provide the Chinese same leverage as the Americans had over F-16s.

Cripple this crucial technology/system by sanctions or not providing support, and you take out the spear from Pakistan.

For example, what if Pakistan decides to use J-35 to bomb India at will? Using its LO features, Pakistan can unilaterally take strike missions. Take out S-400 preemptively and thereby starting a war. Would China want that?

India pulled off operation sindoor out of its ass. There was and is no evidence of Pakistan's involvement in the terrorist attack. That damaged their credibility and improved Pakistan's credibility. If that case was to be again, China by all means will fully support Pakistan.

But if Pakistan starts using Latest Chinese tech and causing regional imbalance, then China may not be too pleased.

Regardless of how obsolete or weak Israeli enemies are, Israel still runs each and every campaign in undertakes in the region through US. Without US blessing, they are nothing.

Which is why i believe Pakistan is taking its time to finalize the J-35/KJ500/HQ19 package......and also keeping other options open, like Turkish AD and KAAN. In that case, Turkey wouldn't give two shits about India.

This is a big problem.

This is not China's model for operating international politics and diplomacy.
You shouldn't make such meaningless hypothetical guesses.

China's arms trade does impose restrictions on user countries. However, its main objectives are:
1. You cannot use the weapons I sell to you to attack me!
2. Restrictions on technological secrets. You cannot disclose technological secrets to third parties without permission.

As for international relations, that pertains to overall diplomatic communication, not to restrictions on any single piece of weaponry.

 

[Yasser76]

Bhai, the day J-35s arrive, it is game over for India.

no wonder they are rushing here and there to get stuff inducted. J-35s will change the game unless until India gets a true stealth, which might be not any time before PAF grinds them to pieces.

They are in a real fix and if you ask me geopoltically and technology wise things are very akin to the late 50s vis a vis the two superpowers.

US and USSR were opposite camps, tech wise almost on part but gradually economically and technically US surpassed USSR till break up of USSR. India backed the wrong horse then.

Now it is China and US. Both are almost on par with each other technically and China behind economically. China is rising and in 1-2 decades will surpass US econmically and technically by a long shot. India has again backed the wrong horse.

All of the above will naturally manifest itself in weapons.With this 4th Industrial revolution and AI driven world, none of us know what war will loo like 20-30 years from now, but for sure China will be at the forefront. This has massive long term implications for India. Do you note they never even talk for two front war anymore? They never now mention China in adverserial terms from a military point if view.

J-35 will come, and if China can, it will make it better then F-35. Then think about future upgrades and 6th gen. "Air superiority" is an outdated term now, we will have "Domain superiority". Air, Cyber, Electronic and data. Much powered by the best AI in the world from China.

May 7th 2025 was a glimpse of the future. Rafales losing radar signal, hacking IAF secure voice comms, Sats pointing out IAF planes everywhere for us, AEW guiding all assets, S-400s taken out before they knew what hit them. Yes, old fashion air to air kills will happen but they will be enabled by everything else. This is why PAF has wisely not just gone in for J-35 but also new AEW and SAM package.

Once we have all of the above, and with new secure data links, new EW aircraft and ground radar and EW assets as well as the new sats we have launched, all interconnect with many Chinese operated assets, I genuinely think PAF will be unstoppable to the exent it may only be the USAF and China itself whom we could then consider better. When all of this happens, Indians, if they are lucky, may well be pouring cement for construction of a factory to make 4th gen Rafales in Naik....

 

[ghazi52]

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[ghazi52]

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[Gripen9]

I think initially F-4 phantoms were offered to Pakistan rather than F-16s.......but after Pakistan's insistence and importance in the Soviet Afghan War, US gave go ahead for F-16 exports to Pakistan.

F-16 at that time was really a gamechanger for the region. No way the US would have authorized its sale to Pakistan under normal circumstances. Pakistan had to prove its worth for it to be worthwhile for Americans.

Somewhat same situation is happening now.......with regards to Pakistan's role in the region and directly mediating US-Iran discussions.

Better cash this moment and get the V upgraded F-16s

F-4s were already out of production by late 70s, early 80s. Pakistan was initially offered the watered down version of F16s known as F16/79. It was powered by J79 turbojet (same as F-4) and a degraded radar that PAF refused right off the bat.

 

[niubi]

They are in a real fix and if you ask me geopoltically and technology wise things are very akin to the late 50s vis a vis the two superpowers.

US and USSR were opposite camps, tech wise almost on part but gradually economically and technically US surpassed USSR till break up of USSR. India backed the wrong horse then.

Now it is China and US. Both are almost on par with each other technically and China behind economically. China is rising and in 1-2 decades will surpass US econmically and technically by a long shot. India has again backed the wrong horse.

All of the above will naturally manifest itself in weapons.With this 4th Industrial revolution and AI driven world, none of us know what war will loo like 20-30 years from now, but for sure China will be at the forefront. This has massive long term implications for India. Do you note they never even talk for two front war anymore? They never now mention China in adverserial terms from a military point if view.

J-35 will come, and if China can, it will make it better then F-35. Then think about future upgrades and 6th gen. "Air superiority" is an outdated term now, we will have "Domain superiority". Air, Cyber, Electronic and data. Much powered by the best AI in the world from China.

May 7th 2025 was a glimpse of the future. Rafales losing radar signal, hacking IAF secure voice comms, Sats pointing out IAF planes everywhere for us, AEW guiding all assets, S-400s taken out before they knew what hit them. Yes, old fashion air to air kills will happen but they will be enabled by everything else. This is why PAF has wisely not just gone in for J-35 but also new AEW and SAM package.

Once we have all of the above, and with new secure data links, new EW aircraft and ground radar and EW assets as well as the new sats we ave launched, all interconnect with many Chinese operated assets, I genuinely think PAF will be unstoppable to the exent it may only be the USAF and China itself whom we could then consider better. When all of this happens, Indians, if they are lucky, may well be pouring cement for construction of a factory to make 4th gen Rafales in Naik....

The thing is just like China vs US over Taiwan Strait in 1990s, India's experience in May 2025 is a lesson for India. They walked away understanding networked warfare. Pakistan only recently established some semblance of networked warfare before May 2025 but it was enough for India to understand similar to China in the 1990s.

So what happened during that Taiwan Strait conflict? The US held back just like Pakistan held back. China was preparing for armed reunification of Taiwan while sending huge volumes of military firepower over and Chinese sensors showed overwhelming number of US forces. In reality, the US used spoofing technology and EW to basically stop the PLA without escalating to kinetic exchange. The experience taught Chinese military planners what they already suspected at that stage and was already in the process of implementing while the planned development path was established. This lesson was about the effectiveness of networked warfare and electronic war. Since the first Desert Storm, Chinese military leaders realised the Soviet doctrine is flawed in modern warfare and set about to completely overhaul the PLA into what it is today - a combination of Western and Soviet doctrines all with China's inherent strengths and weaknesses considered.

I do not believe India walks away from May 2025 without learning quite a few things. However, their inherent corruption and quality of their leadership (dismal) may make them double down on faults but there will be improvements sprinkled in regardless of how hard they double down on Rafales. I think they will keep pushing on what worked well for them and that is saturation drone attacks but they expended a sizeable stockpile of their missiles in their retaliation for IAF being killed so early on. Suffice to say, making Rafale in India isn't all India will do to improve itself. Meanwhile they'll be trying to dismantle what Pakistan has revealed about its network warfare capabilities.

In time J-35 will be in PAF and hopefully other high tech weapons too but Pakistan cannot end the Kashmir derived conflict with India without serious firepower from China which would never be approved to the point Pakistan can overwhelm India. Two best paths are that China rises to become global sole superpower/hegemon and therefore has default diplomatic (economically and militarily derived) dominance of its region and assists the final settlement of all China-Pakistan-India disputes in a way that corresponds to power dynamics but also bearable for all involved. The other path is Pakistan getting access to Chinese military equipment that slowly but surely dominates over all, even at the allowed export level, giving Pakistan military superiority over India but not enough to take Kashmir of course, but giving Pakistan the ability to call if and when shooting start and how they finish. This edge is somewhat more in India's favour.

Doubling down on Rafale is a bit silly but IAF really has no other choice. It at least forces Pakistan's hand on more J-10CE purchases which are not inexpensive! Of course those Indian funds could be much more well spent elsewhere but luckily Pakistan as an aggressive neighbour that is 10 times its size but also 10 times its incompetence. India is China sized in population (actually more) but not 5% the real capability. So Pakistan is indeed lucky in this regard.

FGFA with twin seater Su-57 is a threat but it's not well networked with Indian C4ISR, weapons (from absolutely everywhere) and SAMs except maybe S-400. By then, J-35 for Pakistan would be guaranteed if India receives twin seater Su-57 and I'm willing to bet J-35 is overall a better fighter than Su-57 for most purposes.

The faster China develops and improves, the faster Pakistan receive better equipment that are more easily financed compared to a poorer China. India was never going to bet on China since we are neighbours with border disputes.