Pakistan Army Small Arms

[AZ_HighCountry]

Do you think the new Sig 6.8 rifles are going to make it cheaper to acquire the 556 platforms as they will be phased out by the marines and/or usarmy. thats if sig can iron out the issues and really implement the change

Personally, I'm giving the new 6.8 rifle about the same life span as the M-14.

 

[Metal 0-1]

Personally, I'm giving the new 6.8 rifle about the same life span as the M-14.

True, M250 sounds and looks promising based on limited use with Regiment.

 

[جوبا]

Personally, I'm giving the new 6.8 rifle about the same life span as the M-14.

next 6 year procurement totals to only 111k units for the M7 rifle, does that mean the DOD itself is not really confident in fielding it or are they facing too much of a pushback and are revising their decision?
just to compare the M14 had 1.3m units produced in 5 years for the USDOD

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

View attachment 174909next 6 year procurement totals to only 111k units for the M7 rifle, does that mean the DOD itself is not really confident in fielding it or are they facing too much of a pushback and are revising their decision?
just to compare the M14 had 1.3m units produced in 5 years for the USDOD

Not sure. Will do some reading as time permits. Just not convinced this is "the answer".

 

[Metal 0-1]

View attachment 174909next 6 year procurement totals to only 111k units for the M7 rifle, does that mean the DOD itself is not really confident in fielding it or are they facing too much of a pushback and are revising their decision?
just to compare the M14 had 1.3m units produced in 5 years for the USDOD

First thing first it's riddled with issues. Secondly it doesn't fit in squad structure. And there's a balance of more ammo or weight.

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

First thing first it's riddled with issues. Secondly it doesn't fit in squad structure. And there's a balance of more ammo or weight.

Exactly. When your basic load is effectively cut by nearly half (currently 210 rounds with the M16/M4) vs. 140 for the 6.8. Then, with the optics, lasers, suppressor. Not something I would want to carry for any length of time in dismounted operations.

 

[Blain2]

View attachment 174909next 6 year procurement totals to only 111k units for the M7 rifle, does that mean the DOD itself is not really confident in fielding it or are they facing too much of a pushback and are revising their decision?
just to compare the M14 had 1.3m units produced in 5 years for the USDOD

My understanding is that the approach is a tiered one and the numbers you quote are actually for a 10 year period. Front line combat brigades and special operations get the new platform, while the M-4 platform and variants are retained. Marines are staying with their M-27 platform, thus initially they don't have immediate plans to get these new weapons in everyone's hands.

Second, with the increased lethality of the 6.8mm rounds, troops will need to carry less than 5.56 ammunition. The same case as 7.62x51.

 

[جوبا]

First thing first it's riddled with issues. Secondly it doesn't fit in squad structure. And there's a balance of more ammo or weight.

What I read about mostly the justification from DOD was twofold- soldiers getting pinned down in afghan valleys by 7.62 and cant effectively return fire at the same range with the same lethality - which is a moot point since US pulled out already so the "next generation" weapon for a previous war ?
secondly near peer adversaries are expected to wear level 3 or maybe even level 4 plates so the additional lethality is again needed
but my main concern was would this change in anyway benefit pk army maybe arms manufacturer might be retiring 556 manufacturing lines but it doesnt seem this transition is going to work out

 

[جوبا]

Exactly. When your basic load is effectively cut by nearly half (currently 210 rounds with the M16/M4) vs. 140 for the 6.8. Then, with the optics, lasers, suppressor. Not something I would want to carry for any length of time in dismounted operations.

plus doesnt this get messed up with the DMR role? so you have your DMR and now even the rifleman is expected to have a more precision oriented/longer range positioning role

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

My understanding is that the approach is a tiered one and the numbers you quote are actually for a 10 year period. Front line combat brigades and special operations get the new platform, while the M-4 platform and variants are retained. Marines are staying with their M-27 platform, thus initially they don't have immediate plans to get these new weapons in everyone's hands.

Second, with the increased lethality of the 6.8mm rounds, troops will need to carry less than 5.56 ammunition. The same case as 7.62x51.

Not necessarily. The parent case of the 6.8 is indeed 7.62 but entirely different.

In terms of lethality, that is yet to be demonstrated. More to the point, the new round was developed to defeat body armor now routinely issued to adversaries as well as increase the range of lethality compared to the MK262 round.

The underlying issue though is most infantry engagements still occur at ranges of 300M or less. Engagements beyond that in Afghanistan were mostly due to, IMO, the Taliban possibly understanding the limitations of the 5.56 round so they opted to "spray'n'pray" with their AKs or more often than not with a machinegun.

What I don't like about the new rifle is obviously the weight along with the reduced ammo capacity carried by the individual soldier. Then add in the stress on the rifle itself. The new round is generating 80k-psi of chamber pressure vs. 58k-psi in the M-4. This was necessary to generate the velocity of 3000fps in the standard 13 inch barrel and 2800fps in the 10.5 inch barrel. Those are some extremely high pressures IMO which, in turn, necessitates the need for some type of suppression device at the end of the barrel. I have weapons in my personal collections with barrel lengths of 10 inches and 11.5 inches respectively and I only shoot them suppressed.

So, those kind of pressures, and resultant recoil, is going to have an impact on accuracy of follow-up shots. That too is significant in an urban / CQ environment.

 

[ThoroughPro]

If I recall correctly, 16S is 5.56 and 17S 7.62. The key question is, what is the future caliber being envisaged by the Pakistani planners.

Also, keep in mind that amongst the western suppliers, Belgians are considered fairly expensive. If Pakistan were to opt for a western system, we should simply go to the Americans and agree on something. Massive economies of scale and competition among American small-arms manufacturers may make sense.

Given the recent purchases by the UKSF of Knight's Armament Company (KAC) KS-1, Sig's deal with the Indians on the basic 7.62 platform and a brand new platform for the USSOCOM are good exmples and I think Pakistan should explore this route if domestic efforts and collaboration with Turkish/Chinese sources aren't meeting GSR.

We need to work with China, pick a western example that works for us and reverse engineer it, no need to spend millions in licensing and TOT. Guarantee an initial purchase of a quantity that covers the investment and Let the private sector play its role.

 

[Metal 0-1]

What I read about mostly the justification from DOD was twofold- soldiers getting pinned down in afghan valleys by 7.62 and cant effectively return fire at the same range with the same lethality - which is a moot point since US pulled out already so the "next generation" weapon for a previous war ?
secondly near peer adversaries are expected to wear level 3 or maybe even level 4 plates so the additional lethality is again needed
but my main concern was would this change in anyway benefit pk army maybe arms manufacturer might be retiring 556 manufacturing lines but it doesnt seem this transition is going to work out

5.56 77Gr would like to have a conversation. 5.56 can go beyond 1000 yards and will have enough punch to rupture your vital organs.

 

[Blain2]

Not necessarily. The parent case of the 6.8 is indeed 7.62 but entirely different.

In terms of lethality, that is yet to be demonstrated. More to the point, the new round was developed to defeat body armor now routinely issued to adversaries as well as increase the range of lethality compared to the MK262 round.

The underlying issue though is most infantry engagements still occur at ranges of 300M or less. Engagements beyond that in Afghanistan were mostly due to, IMO, the Taliban possibly understanding the limitations of the 5.56 round so they opted to "spray'n'pray" with their AKs or more often than not with a machinegun.

What I don't like about the new rifle is obviously the weight along with the reduced ammo capacity carried by the individual soldier. Then add in the stress on the rifle itself. The new round is generating 80k-psi of chamber pressure vs. 58k-psi in the M-4. This was necessary to generate the velocity of 3000fps in the standard 13 inch barrel and 2800fps in the 10.5 inch barrel. Those are some extremely high pressures IMO which, in turn, necessitates the need for some type of suppression device at the end of the barrel. I have weapons in my personal collections with barrel lengths of 10 inches and 11.5 inches respectively and I only shoot them suppressed.

So, those kind of pressures, and resultant recoil, is going to have an impact on accuracy of follow-up shots. That too is significant in an urban / CQ environment.

I think many of these are teething/orientation issues which will get worked out over time. The same happened with M-16s/M-4s etc.

I think we can surmise there is no single weapons platform that is perfect for all scenarios. The same goes with these Sig ones.

In any case, my point was more to suggest that if Pakistan is looking to opt for an AR type platform, given the SSG, LCBs and special paramilitary units really like their M-4s, then American manufacturers are the way to go instead of the more expensive European ones.

If the same can be replicated through collaboration with the Turks/Chinese then so be it, however if that was feasible, why has it not happened already?

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

5.56 77Gr would like to have a conversation. 5.56 can go beyond 1000 yards and will have enough punch to rupture your vital organs.

What would you like to discuss? A well-trained rifleman, using Mk262 Mod0 / 1 ammo, is capable of hitting targets consistently at ranges of 700-800 yards. DM / SDMs routinely train at those ranges.

Yes, the 5.56 is capable of reaching beyond 1000 yards. 20 years ago, a young SFC on the AMU by the name of Liana Bombardier won the NRA 1000 Match in the Service Rifle category using an M-16. She was shooting Sierra 90s out of a 1x6.5 twist barrel.

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

I think many of these are teething/orientation issues which will get worked out over time. The same happened with M-16s/M-4s etc.

I think we can surmise there is no single weapons platform that is perfect for all scenarios. The same goes with these Sig ones.

In any case, my point was more to suggest that if Pakistan is looking to opt for an AR type platform, given the SSG, LCBs and special paramilitary units really like their M-4s, then American manufacturers are the way to go instead of the more expensive European ones.

If the same can be replicated through collaboration with the Turks/Chinese then so be it, however if that was feasible, why has it not happened already?

Bingo!

Unfortunately, Big Army continues to remain Big Army. They want "one size fits all" to solve all of the world's problems.

The M-16 / M-4 has come a long way since the very early 60s. So has propellant and bullet technology.