Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion

[Cipher212]

If you keep referring to Indian sources, you may also believe that after any major conflicts with Pakistan there's a sudden rise in IAF personnel getting killed on Road accidents, and radar Air defense personnel falling off passenger trains.

Come out of this Indian or Pakistan source mindset. Look at the content. A satellite picture is never biased towards one side unless it has been altered.

 

[Oscar]

Come out of this Indian or Pakistan source mindset. Look at the content. A satellite picture is never biased towards one side unless it has been altered.

Well in that case the issue is if it has been altered or not?
The same goes for the timeframe of the picture.

 

[AeronautIR]

oh bhai, the absence of evidence means the absence of facts.

The whole point of having photos is to establish proof. If we can't offer credible imagery to back up our claims, then our claims absolutely mean nothing.

Back in 2019, we brought Captain Tamil Nadu on TV to prove we took out their MiG-21bis. Indians, on the other hand, kept saying they took out an F-16 and offered no proof; hence, neither we nor the world took their claims seriously.

We can't just flip the standards around now that it doesn't suit our narrative.

The chilling reality of this discussion is that it's revealing we've got babu-berries up our own butts, and we need to flush them out of our system. It's clear that our propaganda wing's run by babus, and I fear to God that our defence is also managed by them now.

I will repeat it again, the evidence for public may or may not be necessary, depending on circumstances.
Everyone who matters and has the power to wage war knows it very well in India. The deterrence has been established and Pakistan has shown that it is a military peer competitor to India. If people who are not decision makers don't believe it, it is not a big deal.

 

[kimjongun]

View attachment 166456

What kind of "multi-domain ops" is this even supposed to be?

The center screen looks like Google Maps, but let’s give them the benefit of the doubt—it could be something else. But... but... but... both side screens are definitely showing CCTV footage of some random road, probably just the facility's entry gate.

Someone needs to break the news to them: not all fighter jets arrive on the back of a truck. That’s a "specialty" reserved strictly for the Tejas.

And check out that bottom-left computer—they’re still rocking Windows XP. Seriously, what the hell am I even looking at?

Looking at the uncle at the right its probably not the C2 center....probably somewhere in the west
EDIT:

THIS IMAGE IS FROM FIJI...see the white dude at the right and at upfront near the screen.

 

[Master Chief]

Looking at the uncle at the right its probably not the C2 center....probably somewhere in the west
EDIT:
View attachment 166620
THIS IMAGE IS FROM FIJI...see the white dude at the right and at upfront near the screen.

It's scam tech. All of India's "military surveillance technology" is purely to find scam victims for the "IT hub" specialists to then pursue.

There is a map in the main screen of Arkansas and Oklahoma, fertile scamming territory.

 

[JamD]

I will repeat it again, the evidence for public may or may not be necessary, depending on circumstances.
Everyone who matters and has the power to wage war knows it very well in India. The deterrence has been established and Pakistan has shown that it is a military peer competitor to India. If people who are not decision makers don't believe it, it is not a big deal.

That would have been a fair argument anywhere EXCEPT our theater. I have said this many times before, the failure of deterrence in South Asia has happened because the Indian actions are driven by Indian public perception, and the Indian public doesn't care about facts - let alone hidden facts - all that matters is perception. 2019 was a success in perception of the Indian public (except total idiots) because there was very solid BDAs. I still maintain deterence failed because we didnt own the Indian social media space with BDAs and as a result we had May 2025. However, with BuM, ISPR (and you) are relying on trust me bro. Not even Pakistanis are buying it fully - Indians to door ki baat. And THATS PRECISELY what matters. Even if we assume that ISPR claims are 100% facts, even then in the absence of any BDA, the utility is limited BECAUSE of this theater's dependence on perceptions rather than hidden facts.


Another comment about trust me bro claims: on a forum, we do get a lot of those. However, the community of knowledgeable members on the forum have a pretty good ability to weed out hyperbole from fact through corroboration with other posters and common sense. So regardless of what you or I assert, "people that matter on the forum" will also figure out what is hot air or not.

At the risk of claiming to speak for others, this BuM trust me bro BDA isn't being bought, unfortunately. Maybe something will change.

 

[AeronautIR]

That would have been a fair argument anywhere EXCEPT our theater. I have said this many times before, the failure of deterrence in South Asia has happened because the Indian actions are driven by Indian public perception, and the Indian public doesn't care about facts - let alone hidden facts - all that matters is perception. 2019 was a success in perception of the Indian public (except total idiots) because there was very solid BDAs. I still maintain deterence failed because we didnt own the Indian social media space with BDAs and as a result we had May 2025. However, with BuM, ISPR (and you) are relying on trust me bro. Not even Pakistanis are buying it fully - Indians to door ki baat. And THATS PRECISELY what matters. Even if we assume that ISPR claims are 100% facts, even then in the absence of any BDA, the utility is limited BECAUSE of this theater's dependence on perceptions rather than hidden facts.


Another comment about trust me bro claims: on a forum, we do get a lot of those. However, the community of knowledgeable members on the forum have a pretty good ability to weed out hyperbole from fact through corroboration with other posters and common sense. So regardless of what you or I assert, "people that matter on the forum" will also figure out what is hot air or not.

At the risk of claiming to speak for others, this BuM trust me bro BDA isn't being bought, unfortunately. Maybe something will change.

Did I ask you to trust me? It doesn't matter if public believes S-400 wad destroyed or not. We are not the ones who will pay the price if that S-400 can still shoot down aircraft. So for those who are putting everything on line, the sources must be more credible than this forum or ISPR. (I don't know what does BuM stand for)
If India had the capability, they would have already done all the things being discussed here, barrages of Brahmos and all that. They had to lie to their public because they completely failed in their mission.
Now, before I am reminded by many that IAF achieved the targets, I hope everyone thinks about the fact that total playtime was around an hour. Why would they continue to loiter there if they have achieved the goals in first 2 min? Their aim was to violate Pakistani airspace and shoot some PAF jets to prove Pakistan is their Gaza. They failed miserably in that and as I said, clear deterrence was established.

 

[JamD]

Did I ask you to trust me?

Me specifically? No. People on the forum? In a matter of speaking, yes. You keep repeating your claims - what other purpose is there other than to convince us by trusting you?

It doesn't matter if public believes S-400 wad destroyed or not. We are not the ones who will pay the price if that S-400 can still shoot down aircraft.

As I argued, it actually matters a lot what the INDIAN public thinks. I think it is obvious to everyone (and often repeated by even ISPR) that the Indian military is hostage to their public. Whether or not S400 is active or not is a debate for when a shooting war starts. Not about deterrence, which is by definition before a war starts. And S400 may play a part for India's deterrence but it is the Pakistan's deterrence that I am arguing about - Pakistan's deterrence needs to affect Indian public perception.

(I don't know what does BuM stand for)

Bunyan un Marsoos

If India had the capability, they would have already done all the things being discussed here, barrages of Brahmos and all that. They had to lie to their public because they completely failed in their mission.

They lie so much it needs to be studied academically. However, we cannot base strategy on moral high ground that they lied. They lied? So what? Their public believed them. Deterrence failed just like that. Please read on on why I argue against your claim that deterrence was established.

Now, before I am reminded by many that IAF achieved the targets, I hope everyone thinks about the fact that total playtime was around an hour. Why would they continue to loiter there if they have achieved the goals in first 2 min? Their aim was to violate Pakistani airspace and shoot some PAF jets to prove Pakistan is their Gaza. They failed miserably in that and as I said, clear deterrence was established.

Maybe I am not able to communicate this well enough. It doesn't matter what their tactical, strategic goals were and if they achieved them. What matters is what their public believed. Because whether we like it or not, THAT is what determines if India attacks Pakistan.

It is my opinion that it was the threat of escalation to possibly a nuclear level that forced the US to jump in. Nobody saw any evidence of massive conventional damage on the Indian side.

Khalid Kidwai confirmed that there was a missing rung in the escalation ladder giving the reason for the establishment of the rocket force.

The first paragraph also confirms my opinion. I believe we can all agree that Khalid Kidwai is a reliable source for these things.

 

[AeronautIR]

Me specifically? No. People on the forum? In a matter of speaking, yes. You keep repeating your claims - what other purpose is there other than to convince us by trusting you?


As I argued, it actually matters a lot what the INDIAN public thinks. I think it is obvious to everyone (and often repeated by even ISPR) that the Indian military is hostage to their public. Whether or not S400 is active or not is a debate for when a shooting war starts. Not about deterrence, which is by definition before a war starts. And S400 may play a part for India's deterrence but it is the Pakistan's deterrence that I am arguing about - Pakistan's deterrence needs to affect Indian public perception.


Bunyan un Marsoos


They lie so much it needs to be studied academically. However, we cannot base strategy on moral high ground that they lied. They lied? So what? Their public believed them. Deterrence failed just like that. Please read on on why I argue against your claim that deterrence was established.


Maybe I am not able to communicate this well enough. It doesn't matter what their tactical, strategic goals were and if they achieved them. What matters is what their public believed. Because whether we like it or not, THAT is what determines if India attacks Pakistan.

It is my opinion that it was the threat of escalation to possibly a nuclear level that forced the US to jump in. Nobody saw any evidence of massive conventional damage on the Indian side.

Khalid Kidwai confirmed that there was a missing rung in the escalation ladder giving the reason for the establishment of the rocket force.
View attachment 166636
The first paragraph also confirms my opinion. I believe we can all agree that Khalid Kidwai is a reliable source for these things.

Ok, I don't know about in a matter of speaking but it is only your personal opinion that I am asking people to trust me, which I am not.
Just like all members here, I have a right to an opinion and it is absolutely fine with me if nobody agrees with it... I don't think Indian missiles can take out PAF bases, I believe we destroyed their multiple assets and they can only show satellite photos for optics with no military significance.
Now, before I go further about Sir Kidwai's IPRI speech or whether I am worried about if India will attack again due to public pressure or not, did deterrence fail or not etc., we need to break the discussion down to specific questions. Otherwise, we will continue to digress from topic.
My brief argument is that PAF has shown everyone that they are at par with IAF if not better and it doesn't matter whether masses believe it or not.
This is just regarding airpower and if we expand to Army, Navy, economy etc., that is a separate topic with other core arguments.

 

[JamD]

Ok, I don't know about in a matter of speaking but it is only your personal opinion that I am asking people to trust me, which I am not.
Just like all members here, I have a right to an opinion and it is absolutely fine with me if nobody agrees with it..

Nobody is questioning your right to an opinion, least of all me. I was simply answering your question.

I don't think Indian missiles can take out PAF bases, I believe we destroyed their multiple assets and they can only show satellite photos for optics with no military significance.

Okay. Fair.

Now, before I go further about Sir Kidwai's IPRI speech or whether I am worried about if India will attack again due to public pressure or not, did deterrence fail or not etc., we need to break the discussion down to specific questions. Otherwise, we will continue to digress from topic.

I would've thought that discussion of deterrence played in important role in the Indo-Pak theatre and directly relates to the Brahmos threat. However, I understand that you don't want to discuss that and focus on the PAF.

My brief argument is that PAF has shown everyone that they are at par with IAF if not better and it doesn't matter whether masses believe it or not.
This is just regarding airpower and if we expand to Army, Navy, economy etc., that is a separate topic with other core arguments.

You will have no argument from me on PAF's air-to-air capacity. It is obviously the deficiencies in Pakistan's armed forces (including some in the PAF regarding non air-to-air things) that I was attempting to discuss. But I will not force you to discuss things that I want to discuss. Sorry to force it on you.

 

[AeronautIR]

Nobody is questioning your right to an opinion, least of all me. I was simply answering your question.


Okay. Fair.


I would've thought that discussion of deterrence played in important role in the Indo-Pak theatre and directly relates to the Brahmos threat. However, I understand that you don't want to discuss that and focus on the PAF.


You will have no argument from me on PAF's air-to-air capacity. It is obviously the deficiencies in Pakistan's armed forces (including some in the PAF regarding non air-to-air things) that I was attempting to discuss. But I will not force you to discuss things that I want to discuss. Sorry to force it on you.

No worries but now I am actually confused this debate started yesterday in the J-10 thread on the topic of Brahmos threat... many were of the opinion that India has the capability to take out multiple PAF bases, evident by the strikes in May... I disagreed with that due to multiple reasons.
Now, if we are not continuing that discussion, I am all ears about your views because as I said, I thought the topic is still PAF vs IAF.

 

[Starlord]

I agree with @JamD Point of we can't just rely on Trust me bro argument, we did that back in 2019 when few respectable members were talking about a SU-30 down/damage, and now in BuM, Yes we saw some wreckage of planes which can be easily confirmed, we saw a good amount of SH15's unloading on LOC, but we saw very few F1 rockets fired, Its not hard to see why very few evidences are coming from Satellite images of any damage from F1's strikes.
That argument that " We did so much damage to Indians, and their top military/civilian leadership knows it " can only hold for sometime.
I just fear that if we keep doing things like that we will lose the tiny bit reputation we have in some international media about out claims during the skirmish or any future conflict.
Its very simple, don't make tall claims unless you can back them up with some evidence.

 

[AeronautIR]

I agree with @JamD Point of we can't just rely on Trust me bro argument, we did that back in 2019 when few respectable members were talking about a SU-30 down/damage, and now in BuM, Yes we saw some wreckage of planes which can be easily confirmed, we saw a good amount of SH15's unloading on LOC, but we saw very few F1 rockets fired, Its not hard to see why very few evidences are coming from Satellite images of any damage from F1's strikes.
That argument that " We did so much damage to Indians, and their top military/civilian leadership knows it " can only hold for sometime.
I just fear that if we keep doing things like that we will lose the tiny bit reputation we have in some international media about out claims during the skirmish or any future conflict.
Its very simple, don't make tall claims unless you can back them up with some evidence.

May be it's just me but I am unable to understand the obsession with this trust me bro argument and evidence etc. If Indian top brass knows the truth about our capability, they will not decide to attack irrespective of public pressure.
All the intelligence agencies and hence all state leaders know the truth, may it be Trump or Macron. Every technician on Rafale flight lines knows the number of missing aircraft.
If people of Pakistan and India say we don't believe any of it without proof, how will it lead to another conflict? They are not the ones who can order the IAF or PAF to do anything.

 

[Starlord]

May be it's just me but I am unable to understand the obsession with this trust me bro argument and evidence etc. If Indian top brass knows the truth about our capability, they will not decide to attack irrespective of public pressure.
All the intelligence agencies and hence all state leaders know the truth, may it be Trump or Macron. Every technician on Rafale flight lines knows the number of missing aircraft.
If people of Pakistan and India say we don't believe any of it without proof, how will it lead to another conflict? They are not the ones who can order the IAF or PAF to do anything.

There is no obsession, its just we don't want to be like Indians and become a laughing stock to the world which we already are, very few Defense Analysts take Pakistan's claims seriously, and despite Trump repeating 7-0, its not like other Govts has believed this narrative, Trump was very clever with his wording, he always say X numbers of fighters were shot down without specifying the name of country, now many will say that he is talking about IAF planes as we have evidence for 3-4 downed jets, but as the claims and numbers of jets are increasing, the need for visual evidence also increase.
At the end of the day, we make our claims and they make theirs, its the same thing happen in 2019, we thought losing 1 Jet, next day bombings will deter them from doing anything funny but we seen they launch some intense strikes on Pakistan in May 2025, we lost civilians, military personal, hangers etc we hear 16-19 engaged sites during Bunyaan Al Marsoos but we have not seen any evidence of any major destruction, that's the reality unfortunately.

 

[aurelianpilled]

Sarghoda airbase was also hit with Indian drones prior to brahmos/sclap strike on the runaways. A radar tech was martyred with the drone stike.

Hmm, this one is new to me, and considering that the Sargodha airbase lies almost ~180–190 km from the Indian border, it is very much likely that it was an IAI Harop drone (?), which has a range of more than 200 km with an endurance of up to 6 hours. The drone somehow flew undetected over a densely populated area (Northern Punjab) and penetrated almost 200 km inside our airspace, which is quite worrying.