Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion

[Bratva]

Hmm, this one is new to me, and considering that the Sargodha airbase lies almost ~180–190 km from the Indian border, it is very much likely that it was an IAI Harop drone (?), which has a range of more than 200 km with an endurance of up to 6 hours. The drone somehow flew undetected over a densely populated area (Northern Punjab) and penetrated almost 200 km inside our airspace, which is quite worrying.

It is my guesstimate that Indians sent a heavy strike package towards Sarghoda. Drones and missiles both. Some missiles were shot down, IIRC remains of SCALP cruise missile was found from in the fields near Sarghoda base missile hitting Kirana hills is still a mystery. Was it jammed and veered off from intended target and hit Kirana hills or India intended to hit Kirana hills remains a mystery.

 

[Bratva]

The overwhelming majority of Russian cruise missiles during Russia's attack on the night of 22-23 December were intercepted by pilots of F-16 fighter jets. The Air Force stresses that missiles for air defence systems and air-to-air missiles supplied by partners are not arriving in the quantities Ukraine needs to counter Russian aggression.

Source: Colonel Yurii Ihnat, head of communications for the Air Force of Ukraine

Quote: "You can see the extremely high effectiveness of air defence operations, because the Kinzhal missiles, although not intercepted by Patriots, did not reach their targets.

Out of 35 cruise missiles, 34 were shot down, mainly by F-16 aircraft intercepting these missiles, for which we thank our brave pilots."

Almost all Russian missiles intercepted by F-16 pilots overnight

The overwhelming majority of Russian cruise missiles during Russia's attack on the night of 22-23 December were intercepted by pilots of F-16 fighter jets. The Air Force stresses that missiles for air defence systems and air-to-air missiles supplied by partners are not arriving in the quantities...

www.pravda.com.ua

 

[Falcon26]

Did I ask you to trust me? It doesn't matter if public believes S-400 wad destroyed or not. We are not the ones who will pay the price if that S-400 can still shoot down aircraft. So for those who are putting everything on line, the sources must be more credible than this forum or ISPR. (I don't know what does BuM stand for)
If India had the capability, they would have already done all the things being discussed here, barrages of Brahmos and all that. They had to lie to their public because they completely failed in their mission.
Now, before I am reminded by many that IAF achieved the targets, I hope everyone thinks about the fact that total playtime was around an hour. Why would they continue to loiter there if they have achieved the goals in first 2 min? Their aim was to violate Pakistani airspace and shoot some PAF jets to prove Pakistan is their Gaza. They failed miserably in that and as I said, clear deterrence was established.

Respect your service and contributions but I think what @JamD is saying is highly relevant and pertinent. You simply don’t seem to get the basic argument.

 

[puttputt]

May be it's just me but I am unable to understand the obsession with this trust me bro argument and evidence etc. If Indian top brass knows the truth about our capability, they will not decide to attack irrespective of public pressure.
All the intelligence agencies and hence all state leaders know the truth, may it be Trump or Macron. Every technician on Rafale flight lines knows the number of missing aircraft.
If people of Pakistan and India say we don't believe any of it without proof, how will it lead to another conflict? They are not the ones who can order the IAF or PAF to do anything.

That "obsession" with wanting evidence and ignoring 'trust me bro' arguments is the reason why India's surging ahead industrially and scientifically, and why Pakistan looks like an overblown uncle-run smoke shop that sells gas without having a gas station.

India's got satellite imagery on us, multiple production lines for BrahMos and other missiles with 50-60%+ indigenous inputs, and we, in Pakistan, have 'trust me bro' info about PFX and BuM.

With this mentality, we won't win.

The guys who have this obsession want to win, and better yet, they've all competed in the cutthroat business, education, and scientific culture of the West, so they know what progress and. winning looks like.

These guys like @JamD are among the best Pakistanis in their fields on Earth, and even now, on this forum, we Pakistanis are giving them bullsh!t.

So, yeah, if this is the mentality, then enjoy seeing the country slide backwards, downwards, and God knows wherever else except for climbing up.

 

[AeronautIR]

There is no obsession, its just we don't want to be like Indians and become a laughing stock to the world which we already are, very few Defense Analysts take Pakistan's claims seriously, and despite Trump repeating 7-0, its not like other Govts has believed this narrative, Trump was very clever with his wording, he always say X numbers of fighters were shot down without specifying the name of country, now many will say that he is talking about IAF planes as we have evidence for 3-4 downed jets, but as the claims and numbers of jets are increasing, the need for visual evidence also increase.
At the end of the day, we make our claims and they make theirs, its the same thing happen in 2019, we thought losing 1 Jet, next day bombings will deter them from doing anything funny but we seen they launch some intense strikes on Pakistan in May 2025, we lost civilians, military personal, hangers etc we hear 16-19 engaged sites during Bunyaan Al Marsoos but we have not seen any evidence of any major destruction, that's the reality unfortunately.

Honestly, any objective observer can spot the difference between Pakistan's geopolitical standing before and after the May conflict. Whether anyone believes our claims or not, the respect we got since May is very clear. So, I don't agree with that laughing stock comment because any international defense analyst worth his salt can confirm it from any intelligence community of the world.

If they have to rely on ISPR for evidence and confirmation, I will think of them as aviation enthusiasts instead of respected defence journalists. And Trump's wording doesn't matter because with all the satellite pictures, not a single one contains aircraft wreckage. So, we need to separate the claims of aircraft and ground targets because Indians have literally zero evidence for their claims about shooting PAF jets.

About the number of aircraft, it can still increase in future because a 5th Rafale was damaged and if it is confirmed that they couldn't recover it, it will be written off too. I think this is very responsible that we claimed 6-nil, even though we were sure there are more hits. The 4th Rafale was confirmed later by intelligence and then CAS told it to Alan Warnes personally during his visit.

 

[AeronautIR]

Respect your service and contributions but I think what @JamD is saying is highly relevant and pertinent. You simply don’t seem to get the basic argument.

Kindly tell me that basic argument.

 

[Starlord]

Honestly, any objective observer can spot the difference between Pakistan's geopolitical standing before and after the May conflict. Whether anyone believes our claims or not, the respect we got since May is very clear. So, I don't agree with that laughing stock comment because any international defense analyst worth his salt can confirm it from any intelligence community of the world.

If they have to rely on ISPR for evidence and confirmation, I will think of them as aviation enthusiasts instead of respected defence journalists. And Trump's wording doesn't matter because with all the satellite pictures, not a single one contains aircraft wreckage. So, we need to separate the claims of aircraft and ground targets because Indians have literally zero evidence for their claims about shooting PAF jets.

About the number of aircraft, it can still increase in future because a 5th Rafale was damaged and if it is confirmed that they couldn't recover it, it will be written off too. I think this is very responsible that we claimed 6-nil, even though we were sure there are more hits. The 4th Rafale was confirmed later by intelligence and then CAS told it to Alan Warnes personally during his visit.

Lets agree to disagree, I think this thread should be close, and we should focus on future conflict, whatever we do in May will never come out anyway so I don't see the point, Indians have their claims and we have ours and neither side is willing to compromise so I don't see the point in keep adding more Rafale's or planes or air bases into this conflict without any substantial evidence.
This thread has served its purpose and should be put to rest until the next skirmish and the online fight will continue there.

 

[AeronautIR]

That "obsession" with wanting evidence and ignoring 'trust me bro' arguments is the reason why India's surging ahead industrially and scientifically, and why Pakistan looks like an overblown uncle-run smoke shop that sells gas without having a gas station.

I don't even know what that means... if we are talking militarily only, you are dead wrong. Instead of getting mad at me, please give some data instead of emotions.

India's got satellite imagery on us, multiple production lines for BrahMos and other missiles with 50-60%+ indigenous inputs, and we, in Pakistan, have 'trust me bro' info about PFX and BuM.

Have they satellite imagery for a single PAF downed jet? You should also mention multiple production lines for Tejas and AMCA.

With this mentality, we won't win.

The guys who have this obsession want to win, and better yet, they've all competed in the cutthroat business, education, and scientific culture of the West, so they know what progress and. winning looks like.

Luckily, definition of winning in conflict doesn't include convincing masses by showing evidence.

These guys like @JamD are among the best Pakistanis in their fields on Earth, and even now, on this forum, we Pakistanis are giving them bullsh!t.

I have not disrespected anyone here. I don't know why the word obsession triggered you. I don't know anyone personally here but I am sure they are professionals in their fields, just like I am in mine. I am trying to understand the point of view of any interlocutor but this ranting seems quite toxic.

So, yeah, if this is the mentality, then enjoy seeing the country slide backwards, downwards, and God knows wherever else except for climbing up.

Honestly, I have seen Indian military slide backwards, downwards, and God knows wherever else except for climbing up. I am not underestimating the enemy but I am quite confident of shooting them down again in any future conflict insha Allah.

 

[Falcon26]

Kindly tell me that basic argument.

That you need to produce evidence though credible BDA to own the narrative war. The notion that the Indian military knows the beating they took is irrelevant. Especially, as the Indians are producing high-res satellite imagery of the damage to PAF bases. Pakistan claims it has done the same but produces no credible evidence. PAF won the air war but everything since the “maturity and restraint” guy stepped in has gone down hill. India was given compete authority to hit PAF bases with nothing done in retaliation. This remains the consensus despite claims “ trust us, we have also hit them bad in kind.”

 

[AeronautIR]

[/QUOTE]

That you need to produce evidence though credible BDA to own the narrative war. The notion that the Indian military knows the beating they took is irrelevant. Especially, as the Indians are producing high-res satellite imagery of the damage to PAF bases. Pakistan claims it has done the same but produces no credible evidence. PAF won the air war but everything since the “maturity and restraint” guy stepped in has gone down hill. India was given compete authority to hit PAF bases with nothing done in retaliation. This remains the consensus despite claims “ trust us, we have also hit them bad in kind.”

Ok, so the basic argument is about narrative war and not actual damage.
Now, I have a question... kindly tell me that if Indians have produced a single proof to support their claims of shooting PAF aircraft?
The high-res imagery you mentioned was for ground targets only, right?

 

[AeronautIR]

Lets agree to disagree, I think this thread should be close, and we should focus on future conflict, whatever we do in May will never come out anyway so I don't see the point, Indians have their claims and we have ours and neither side is willing to compromise so I don't see the point in keep adding more Rafale's or planes or air bases into this conflict without any substantial evidence.
This thread has served its purpose and should be put to rest until the next skirmish and the online fight will continue there.

Great suggestion, I support it. Though if we just shoot Indian aircraft like in 2019 and 2025 next time too, I doubt people will be happy if they are not personally shown the evidence.

 

[Falcon26]

Ok, so the basic argument is about narrative war and not actual damage.
Now, I have a question... kindly tell me that if Indians have produced a single proof to support their claims of shooting PAF aircraft?
The high-res imagery you mentioned was for ground targets only, right?

Indians simply lied about the air losses they took. They were exposed as frauds. Their senior most military chief tried damage control by saying “ there were losses but losses are not important” then admitted their air force was down and out for 2-days during the 4-day war.

But the Indian missile strikes produced compelling visuals that allowed India to wrestle narrative and distort the outcome.

Perception beats reality any day and the Indians have exploited the missile strikes by sharing compelling war imagery. The dozens of satellite images of frontline PAF bases being hit creates a major narrative advantage regardless of how much Pakistan military tries to downplay it.

Ps

By multiple accounts, an Erieye was impacted by debris and had to be taken out for repairs. Since PAF is support node heavy, even such disruptions impact its kill chain massively. Hence why base attacks can’t be ignored as irritants only.

 

[puttputt]

I don't even know what that means... if we are talking militarily only, you are dead wrong. Instead of getting mad at me, please give some data instead of emotions.

Have they satellite imagery for a single PAF downed jet? You should also mention multiple production lines for Tejas and AMCA.

Luckily, definition of winning in conflict doesn't include convincing masses by showing evidence.

I have not disrespected anyone here. I don't know why the word obsession triggered you. I don't know anyone personally here but I am sure they are professionals in their fields, just like I am in mine. I am trying to understand the point of view of any interlocutor but this ranting seems quite toxic.

Honestly, I have seen Indian military slide backwards, downwards, and God knows wherever else except for climbing up. I am not underestimating the enemy but I am quite confident of shooting them down again in any future conflict insha Allah.

1. No one here said the IAF downed a PAF jet. That was never even on the table.

Instead, we're all here disputing whether BuM was actually as successful as ISPR is making it out to be, and we're saying that the proof for that claim wasn't there. Rather, the Indians lined up lots of proof about being able to hit PAF air bases with their missiles -- we did not show anything to support our claims. Do you see the problem?

2. Yes, and besides multiple Tejas production lines, India also makes much, much more of the Su-30MKI indigenously than we do with the JF-17. Indians have much more proof of their work on the AMCA than we do with the PFX.

3. We honestly don't give a sh!t about the Indian military; we care about Indian warfighting, which is derived from their growing industrial footprint.

It's much easier to fix leadership than to create an industry, and the Indians have mastered the latter. Not only that, but India has the killer instinct within to produce strong leaders, who WILL use the existing industrial capacity to screw us if we're not careful.

 

[AeronautIR]

Indians simply lied about the air losses they took. They were exposed as frauds. Their senior most military chief tried damage control by saying “ there were losses but losses are not important” then admitted their air force was down and out for 2-days during the 4-day war.

But the Indian missile strikes produced compelling visuals that allowed India to wrestle narrative and distort the outcome.

Perception beats reality any day and the Indians have exploited the missile strikes by sharing compelling war imagery. The dozens of satellite images of frontline PAF bases being hit creates a major narrative advantage regardless of how much Pakistan military tries to downplay it.

Not dozens of satellite images of frontline PAF bases but I get your point now. I think @Starlord is right about closing this thread because our difference in thinking is about importance of perception vs reality. You think perception is more important whereas for me actual destruction of target is enough.

 

[Oscar]

Not dozens of satellite images of frontline PAF bases but I get your point now. I think @Starlord is right about closing this thread because our difference in thinking is about importance of perception vs reality. You think perception is more important whereas for me actual destruction of target is enough.

The Swift Retort thread ran for 3 years on much less drama -