Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion

[falcon34]

AFAIK the JF-17 that went after S-400 was locked up by S-400 radar but combo of sheer luck that S-400 did not fire(or in my theory the S-400 was caught with its pants down in terms of TEL readiness)

Indian actually gave gallantry award for repairing a TEL. Poor maintenance they missed out on a Kill.
Now if we tie this in with the IAF chief's statement of him saying 2-4 weapons fell at S400 positions the radar at Adampur seems a clear hit. CM400 would have at Adampur within 3-4 mints, they can't pack up and leave in 3-4 mints when they are also engaging an aircraft.

 

[rafale]

@Oscar

Now see, your posts here have actually benefitted our knowledge.....we need more of these discussions and posts here on the forum.

Fortunately or unfortunately, even though i am Logics/Controls guy in the Industrial sector, I very much love these kind of discussions.

Seems like you are making the best use of your annual Christmas/new year holidays!

 

[hnn]

I am I seeing things or these are hits

Just my observation: the first image shows a very high probability of damage but not the other two. I can be wrong on in this but I am looking at the tree line in the latter 2 pictures and it seems intact. The trees are hugging the buildings so I'm hypothesizing that had the building took damage then there would have been some observable disturbance to the tree line and pattern.

 

[Michael]

Depends on the system. HIMAD systems like S400 / HQ9 take around 30 mins i believe. You will need to connect the command vehicle with radar and batteries through RF antennas. Power connections. Erecting the launchers. Then earthing connections. System power up. BIT checks. Radar optimization etc

Proficiency and skill level of manpower may affect the timings.

I don't know where you got this information. It differs significantly from the information I have.

Modern medium-to-long-range area air defense systems (such as the HQ-9 and S-400) typically take several minutes to ten minutes to transition from a marching state to a fully deployed, combat-ready state. Russian official information states that the standard transition time for the S-400 is approximately 5 minutes. The reverse process (withdrawal) takes slightly less time.

There's another difference. Modern medium-to-long-range area air defense systems need to distinguish between pre-established and non-pre-established positions.

Deployment is faster at pre-established positions. They typically use pre-laid cables to connect the various units, improving their resistance to interference. Deployment at non-pre-established positions is slower, and usually involves using dedicated wireless communication systems to connect the units.

The specific time required depends on multiple factors, including the training level of the troops and the combination of weapon system units. However, they now generally employ highly automated deployment systems, which are quite fast and usually don't require 30 minutes.

===========================================

The Soviet SA-2 air defense system.

When the Chinese army used this system, the time required to switch from marching to combat readiness was approximately 4 hours.
Later, the North Vietnamese army also introduced and deployed this system. Their fastest recorded time was 6 hours.

Similar differences also exist with the S-400 air defense system. The actual time required for Russia, China, and India may also vary significantly.

 

[Vkdindian1]

If they are still using or trying to use S125 Pechora then i think there are bigger systemic problems underlying with their mentality and readiness....doesn't matter how many missiles or launchers you still have....it is just an antiquated system today.

Isn’t it possible that IAF still finds it useful because it has useful life left?

There are still huge gaps in the AD this side and any and every system to fill these gaps is better than none. It would be great to have latest MRSAM, LRSAM and S400s, but they come at a huge cost.

When a missile is launched towards an aerial target, it is bound to take evasive actions and that isn’t dependent on how antiquated the missile is.

 

[Oscar]

Russian official information states that the standard transition time for the S-400 is approximately 5 minutes. The reverse process (withdrawal) takes slightly less time.

You are assuming machine like training and ideal state.
That is rarely if ever seen in combat and I certainly doubt that for the S-400 with multiple components in place.
Simply because crews for such systems do not practice or exercise at the level which perhaps a F1 crew or even a ER team does.

 

[Oscar]

Isn’t it possible that IAF still finds it useful because it has useful life left?

There are still huge gaps in the AD this side and any and every system to fill these gaps is better than none. It would be great to have latest MRSAM, LRSAM and S400s, but they come at a huge cost.

When a missile is launched towards an aerial target, it is bound to take evasive actions and that isn’t dependent on how antiquated the missile is.

Life and also availablity.
I mentioned on another thread. Availablity beats Ability.
The biggest fallacy in IAF(and frankly overall Indian defense thinking) is focusing on Ability vs Availablity.

 

[Michael]

You are assuming machine like training and ideal state.
That is rarely if ever seen in combat and I certainly doubt that for the S-400 with multiple components in place.
Simply because crews for such systems do not practice or exercise at the level which perhaps a F1 crew or even a ER team does.

I don't fully trust the official information from Russia. For promotional purposes, they might be presenting the fastest recorded time as the standard deployment time.

However, even in a real combat scenario, "30 minutes" is far too slow. The deployment time for various medium- and long-range air defense systems of the PLA is around 10 minutes, or at most 15 minutes.

Of course, I don't rule out the possibility that the deployment time for India or other armies might be around 30 minutes. This depends on many factors.

I'm simply stating that the deployment time for medium- and long-range air defense systems is not "around 30 minutes" for all countries, even for identical air defense systems.

 

[side-winder]

Russian official information states that the standard transition time for the S-400 is approximately 5 minutes.

The transition you are referring to likely refers to transition from stand by state to Ops state. Stand by state means the system is powered off however all the other prerequisites are already in place. Wireless anetnnas for connectivity already checked at that location, earthing connections already done. Power connections already done etc

All you have to do is to power up the system through power vehicle, erect the launchers, perform BIT checks and optimize the radar. Even then, 5 minutes is little too much to ask and may be possible under ideal conditions. It would take 5 minutes to mobilize and position the manpower let alone system readiness. You can't expect people to remain in vehicles 24/7. They would be in tents nearby (in case of field site) or a building nearby. So you sound the alarm, position everyone to combat stations - Practically speaking, it takes few minutes.

Anyway, when we talk about relocation. It changes the equation entirely.

 

[Vkdindian1]

The biggest fallacy in IAF(and frankly overall Indian defense thinking) is focusing on Ability vs Availablity.

It’s a sad truth about my defence forces. They like to buy big shiny toys in small numbers rather than a little less capable system that could do 90% job at 50% cost but in decent numbers.

Example - AWACS procurement. IAF wanted the finest system on earth to be mounted on IL-76. It was few billion USD and they could buy just 3. PAF went for smaller aircraft but in adequate numbers. Today PAF has made a full ecosystem around those aircraft while IAF is still raising RFPs. PAF operates largest fleet of AWACs after maybe US, Russia and China. There are many more examples.

 

[Michael]

The transition you are referring to likely refers to transition from stand by state to Ops state. Stand by state means the system is powered off however all the other prerequisites are already in place. Wireless anetnnas for connectivity already checked at that location, earthing connections already done. Power connections already done etc

In our terminology:
Marching status refers to the state where all equipment is shut down and folded, and being transported by transport vehicles during a maneuver. For example, an air defense unit moving from Northeast China to Southwest China, covering thousands of kilometers.

During a march, if air defense units receive an urgent order, they need to immediately find a suitable, level temporary position nearby for field deployment and firing.
The time from when these convoys arrive at this temporary position until the entire air defense system is fully operational is the deployment time. (This does not include the time required to find the position and for the convoys to reach the position.)

If it's a pre-established position, this time will be very short, usually around 5-10 minutes.
If it's a non-pre-established position, this time will be slightly longer, usually around 10-15 minutes.

Special note: Not all medium-to-long-range air defense systems have the capability to be deployed in non-pre-designated positions. Some air defense systems can only be deployed in pre-designated locations.

The translation software seems to have some issues; please interpret the translation with caution.

 

[rafale]

At the end, everyone who was part of ops that day - including people who I inferred earlier on SR say the same thing - "What utter Bakwas".
Pakistanis were recording every AAA shell up and down with actual "roof parties" on at night other than certain very scared aunties in Lahore... and this man is claiming PAF aircraft falling in generally heavy population concentrated areas of Pakistan was missed by all and no videos of pilots or wreckage appeared where in their case there are videos and images in even remote areas where there is little population.

Clearly their AD could pick up our jets within Pakistan airspace.........so why weren't they successful in targeting them or hitting them? How PAF managed to keep its assets safe?

Hoping to hear more on that without the usual OPSEC violations of course.

 

[rafale]

It’s a sad truth about my defence force. They like to buy big shiny toys in small numbers rather than a little less capable system that could do 90% job at 50% cost but in decent numbers.

Example - AWACS procurement. IAF wanted the finest system on earth to be mounted on IL-76. It was few billion USD and they could buy just 3. PAF went for smaller aircraft but in adequate numbers. Today PAF has made a full ecosystem around those aircraft while IAF is still raising RFPs. PAF operates largest fleet of AWACs after maybe US, Russia and China. There are many more examples.

Which finest system was it?

What is this national fetish of Bhindians with "Finest"......"Best".......? Does it arouse the likes of you......arousal which otherwise is not possible?

If Rafales and MKIs being shot down hasn't taught you any lesson, nothing will.
So will failures of S400 to score a single high value kill in a very target rich scenario.

Also your entire grasp of AWACs is flawed and wrong....like the rest of IAF.

PAF went for smaller aircraft/platform....doesn't mean the AWACs systems is small......in AWACS the AESA and its capability matters. Having a bigger jet to carry a shorter range radar is useless. Even Saab GLOBAL EYE is mounted atop a regional class jet....not the stupid IL76.

PAF went for turboprop airframes to keep capital cost down while getting the full fledged AESA kit mounted on it. Turboprops also provide a lot more on station time and slower speed means they can navigate very very easily.........an important aspect in air combat situations. You would want to stay in a particular area longer (due to slower speeds) rather than rushing through you scans.

PAF has effectively utilized its AWACs fleet in combat.....and like we say, Paisa Wasool.....while IAF hasn't even started and doesn't even know where to start. Going by the past procurements......MKI this......Rafale that....IAF will proceed to buy AWACs by the information written on the brochure....brag about it....and still not know how to make it all work together in a coherent way.

Just imagine where the next level will be for PAF...........

 

[rafale]

Just my observation: the first image shows a very high probability of damage but not the other two. I can be wrong on in this but I am looking at the tree line in the latter 2 pictures and it seems intact. The trees are hugging the buildings so I'm hypothesizing that had the building took damage then there would have been some observable disturbance to the tree line and pattern.

Those seem solid wood trees native to the region.......if the target was building, you would hardly have much impact on old trees......but it depends on what warhead was it.

From the discussions it seems it was loitering munition......which hardly have proper high density warhead.

Brahmos hit the hanger at Bholari, yet the entire structure was still standing........only one quadrant of the hanger was damaged....and Brahmos carries a lot more warhead than most loitering munitions/UAV

So if you are looking for flattened/obliterated type of damage, it would not be possible unless the warhead was 2000LB-er class bomb/weapon.

 

[Vkdindian1]

Which finest system was it?

What is this national fetish of Bhindians with "Finest"......"Best".......? Does it arouse the likes of you......arousal which otherwise is not possible?

If Rafales and MKIs being shot down hasn't taught you any lesson, nothing will.
So will failures of S400 to score a single high value kill in a very target rich scenario.

Phalcon was a decent system when bought. But astronomically expensive and only piecemeal purchase was done. The numbers required were way higher but couldn’t be bought due to high cost.

As far as “arousal” goes, please keep your interaction with me dignified or you can keep quiet. You don’t need to use derogatory words against Indians to make a point with me. There are enough idiots in your league to engage with you at your level.