Pakistan Navy | News & Discussions

[Toxic]

I used to think this too, but when you look at it, PN has the right number of Admirals compared to other navies. Not forgetting the fact we need senior officers to run Navy related enterprises too and we have quite a large joint command and colleges and defence universities. Not forgetting the fact joint projects (like Hangor) need a senior officer to oversea
We have 28 2 and 3 star admirals. Royal Navy has 31, IN has around 60, Turks have around 30

All those navies are significantly larger then the PM, Turkish and Royal navy atleast 2x and the IN 3-4x the PN.

 

[Yasser76]

All those navies are significantly larger then the PM, Turkish and Royal navy atleast 2x and the IN 3-4x the PN.

no, Turkish approx same size, RN only slightly bigger, but Admiral numbers will never be proportional to ship numbers. You need a base number of senior officers. For example if you have 5 submarines or 10 submarines you will need a 2 star to be in overall charge of submarines.
If Pak Marines are 5,000 or 10,000 you will generally need a 2 star rank.
Head of Navy War college (in UK or Pak) will be 2 star

 

[Michael]

I used to think this too, but when you look at it, PN has the right number of Admirals compared to other navies. Not forgetting the fact we need senior officers to run Navy related enterprises too and we have quite a large joint command and colleges and defence universities. Not forgetting the fact joint projects (like Hangor) need a senior officer to oversea
We have 28 2 and 3 star admirals. Royal Navy has 31, IN has around 60, Turks have around 30

So, in the organizational structure of the Pakistan Navy, what is the rank of the captain of a Type 054A/P or Hangor-class submarine?

In the PLA Navy's organizational structure, the Type 054A frigate and the Type 039 submarine are of the same rank, both at the deputy regimental level. The ship's captain holds the rank of lieutenant colonel. In very rare cases, captains performing special missions may hold the rank of colonel.

 

[Ibbi32]

I used to think this too, but when you look at it, PN has the right number of Admirals compared to other navies. Not forgetting the fact we need senior officers to run Navy related enterprises too and we have quite a large joint command and colleges and defence universities. Not forgetting the fact joint projects (like Hangor) need a senior officer to oversea
We have 28 2 and 3 star admirals. Royal Navy has 31, IN has around 60, Turks have around 30

Really this is the wrong way to look at things. RN and turks have different geographic force commands and are easily 2x larger in capability and hulls. India is not even a comparison as they have different theatre commands with seperate fleets. Even including marines, COASTCOM, NHQ staff, base commanders,at sea commanders etc etc you really dont need more than 20 or so admirals imo. And you mentioned projects like hangor need a senior commander to oversea when its likely better to send a more technically versed commodore or captain instead

 

[Yasser76]

Really this is the wrong way to look at things. RN and turks have different geographic force commands and are easily 2x larger in capability and hulls. India is not even a comparison as they have different theatre commands with seperate fleets. Even including marines, COASTCOM, NHQ staff, base commanders,at sea commanders etc etc you really dont need more than 20 or so admirals imo. And you mentioned projects like hangor need a senior commander to oversea when its likely better to send a more technically versed commodore or captain instead

Not at all, we have a navy nuclear command that Turks do not have, we have strategic delivery systems that Turks will not have, and indeed we have many of the positions you mentioned the Indian Navy has. You also need to take into account Navy will need to be represented at a senior level at MOD, JHQ, Staff college and even some defence attaches are 2 star rank.

Is 28 a bit too much? Not sure, perhaps, but not by a large margin. If anything less bloated that IN

 

[Yasser76]

So, in the organizational structure of the Pakistan Navy, what is the rank of the captain of a Type 054A/P or Hangor-class submarine?

In the PLA Navy's organizational structure, the Type 054A frigate and the Type 039 submarine are of the same rank, both at the deputy regimental level. The ship's captain holds the rank of lieutenant colonel. In very rare cases, captains performing special missions may hold the rank of colonel.

Unsure of exact ranks to each type of vessel. A captain is usually equivelant of a full colonel

 

[ghazi52]

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[Yasser76]

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I read that as PNS Behd Mash for a second....!

 

[ghazi52]

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[Pak-Warrior]

no, Turkish approx same size, RN only slightly bigger, but Admiral numbers will never be proportional to ship numbers. You need a base number of senior officers. For example if you have 5 submarines or 10 submarines you will need a 2 star to be in overall charge of submarines.
If Pak Marines are 5,000 or 10,000 you will generally need a 2 star rank.
Head of Navy War college (in UK or Pak) will be 2 star

RN is significantly bigger. Also I must state that even though Royal navy is much bigger both in quality / tonnage and qty but still there was quite a criticism on RN for exactly this matter, critics were saying more admirals then ships. Because those critics were comparing how big RN used to be at one point with almost same number of officers. But still look at RN today, they have nuclear powered ballistic missile submarines, they have 2 massive 80K ton aircraft carriers, various destroyers and many frigates. The smallest of those vessel is still bigger or equivalent to our largest warship. RN is strategic / global reach / blue water navy. Ours is limited to regional effect. So really we cannot compare with RN.

I don't want to dig the past and deals of the 90s. This was the real & genuine problem with the navy even when there was no nuclear angle, not even 6 ocean worthy warships but still positions were occupied at highest level with all perks. We can easily expand the fleet with current number of admirals. Bloated number of admirals have nothing to do with fleet size anyways. Not all admirals are related with operations anyways. For-example, for admin for housing & welfare, for Public relations etc there are three separate admirals who lead those branches. and this is just for example which were at top of my head. The operations are majorly under one admiral. So whole warfare business is primarily under one. In another view you are giving same value to whole fleet vs the PR vs the housing and other stuff. This shows our priorities. A fighting force needs to show its priorities with its organisational structure.

I don't understand why we need an admiral for PR? Its the culture that needs to change within forces.

 

[bravo_1]

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[Yasser76]

RN is significantly bigger. Also I must state that even though Royal navy is much bigger both in quality / tonnage and qty but still there was quite a criticism on RN for exactly this matter, critics were saying more admirals then ships. Because those critics were comparing how big RN used to be at one point with almost same number of officers. But still look at RN today, they have nuclear powered ballistic missile submarines, they have 2 massive 80K ton aircraft carriers, various destroyers and many frigates. The smallest of those vessel is still bigger or equivalent to our largest warship. RN is strategic / global reach / blue water navy. Ours is limited to regional effect. So really we cannot compare with RN.

I don't want to dig the past and deals of the 90s. This was the real & genuine problem with the navy even when there was no nuclear angle, not even 6 ocean worthy warships but still positions were occupied at highest level with all perks. We can easily expand the fleet with current number of admirals. Bloated number of admirals have nothing to do with fleet size anyways. Not all admirals are related with operations anyways. For-example, for admin for housing & welfare, for Public relations etc there are three separate admirals who lead those branches. and this is just for example which were at top of my head. The operations are majorly under one admiral. So whole warfare business is primarily under one. In another view you are giving same value to whole fleet vs the PR vs the housing and other stuff. This shows our priorities. A fighting force needs to show its priorities with its organisational structure.

I don't understand why we need an admiral for PR? Its the culture that needs to change within forces.

Well you hit the nail on the head, I mentioned earlier we have senior officers as Pak Navy has more responsibilities then many other navies. If this is right or wrong is open to debate. Nuke programme, Bharia University, Ship Building. Many navies do not have these and so we need senior officers here. Compared to other navies PN is certainly not bloated in admirals, I would say we are about average if you take into account what I have just written

 

[Toxic]

Well you hit the nail on the head, I mentioned earlier we have senior officers as Pak Navy has more responsibilities then many other navies. If this is right or wrong is open to debate. Nuke programme, Bharia University, Ship Building. Many navies do not have these and so we need senior officers here. Compared to other navies PN is certainly not bloated in admirals, I would say we are about average if you take into account what I have just written

No, the RN is considered bloated even though they have all those things plus are 2x the size in terms of vessels, the fact the PN has a admiral in charge for any project and sub-project shows they have plenty of high ranking officers to spare, also think for yourself do you think a Organization that can spare a admiral to head a University is understaffed or even adequately staffed?

 

[Yasser76]

No, the RN is considered bloated even though they have all those things plus are 2x the size in terms of vessels, the fact the PN has a admiral in charge for any project and sub-project shows they have plenty of high ranking officers to spare, also think for yourself do you think a Organization that can spare a admiral to head a University is understaffed or even adequately staffed?

It depends on so many things. How big is the university?> How many staff? What is the budget? All these things tend to dictate how senior the officer running it needs to be.

President NDU is a 3 star and commadant staff college is a 2 star.

As I said, Pakistan Navy has more responsibilities then many others so more senior officers are sometimes required.

I am repeating myself now

 

[Toxic]

It depends on so many things. How big is the university?> How many staff? What is the budget? All these things tend to dictate how senior the officer running it needs to be.

President NDU is a 3 star and commadant staff college is a 2 star.

As I said, Pakistan Navy has more responsibilities then many others so more senior officers are sometimes required.

I am repeating myself now

And I said those "Responsibilities" Don't need a Admiral to do no matter how far they are overreaching, hell they probably have a admiral in charge of the Canteen at PNS Mehran.