This will be here 5 years down as a dead thread.
Saudis are not buying anything from brown folks even if it was a UFO.
There is a cultural affliction for western things that goes into "i WANT TO BE THEM".
You cannot fix that.
Even if potentially any grifting and side dealings by Pakistanis are to be dwarfed with what western suppliers might do.
You are right, culturally they are like that but it also shows they are very egoistic.
Considering what happened with Qatar and Doha strikes by Israel, I think all the royal families will be thinking of perhaps, trying to diversify away from the western weapons a little and keeping their other options open. I think this is what Pakistan proved also, you no longer need the 'superior' western equipment to do what you want.
Obviously, they use western weapons buying spree to keep both Europeans and Americans happy.....i mean why the hell do you want Rafales, Typhoons, F-16s, F-15s together? Why can't you just standardize to single country of origin, like Israel did with their airforce?
You are right, culturally they are like that but it also shows they are very egoistic.
Considering what happened with Qatar and Doha strikes by Israel, I think all the royal families will be thinking of perhaps, trying to diversify away from the western weapons a little and keeping their other options open. I think this is what Pakistan proved also, you no longer need the 'superior' western equipment to do what you want.
Obviously, they use western weapons buying spree to keep both Europeans and Americans happy.....i mean why the hell do you want Rafales, Typhoons, F-16s, F-15s together? Why can't you just standardize to single country of origin, like Israel did with their airforce?
The relationship there is always going to "get back together".
The recent moves to secure the petro dollar by the US will strain it - maybe not close to but somewhat to 70s levels but even in those cases it will be the US, not the EU which will take that opportunity to fill in gaps.
Think of it this way, you build infrastructure for decades or more when you build a refinery. This means you plan for which crude you will process best. US Gulf coast refineries were built optimized for Venezuelan grade and then medium/light grades like GCC oil. East coast refineries are tailored for grades that Libyan oil matches.
Many EU refineries spent millions to optimize on processing GCC type grades. So it is a mutual "divorce is too expensive" situation.
The relationship there is always going to "get back together".
The recent moves to secure the petro dollar by the US will strain it - maybe not close to but somewhat to 70s levels but even in those cases it will be the US, not the EU which will take that opportunity to fill in gaps.
Think of it this way, you build infrastructure for decades or more when you build a refinery. This means you plan for which crude you will process best. US Gulf coast refineries were built optimized for Venezuelan grade and then medium/light grades like GCC oil. East coast refineries are tailored for grades that Libyan oil matches.
Many EU refineries spent millions to optimize on processing GCC type grades. So it is a mutual "divorce is too expensive" situation.
You are right, in that refineries are optimized for certain grades of crude.....but they can always upgrade or change within few years at most to newer or different requirements.
The problem is, Trump has alienated EU as well with his snobby remarks time and again. If there is or was any true cultural bond and allies for the americans, it was the europeans. EU can get refined petroleum directly from GCC because they sit very near that region via Suez canal. So US only risks losing out on that market if EU and GCC do fall in same orbit. This hurts US long term and makes everyone understand that US is unreliable. Some countries like Pakistan have tasted the bitter end of that.....some will do now.
South America? Africa? South Asia? EU? GCC? All will look at US as an unreliable partner......and partners that are anxious or second guessing, end up falling in other spheres of influence.....which today is China.
You are right, in that refineries are optimized for certain grades of crude.....but they can always upgrade or change within few years at most to newer or different requirements.
The problem is, Trump has alienated EU as well with his snobby remarks time and again. If there is or was any true cultural bond and allies for the americans, it was the europeans. EU can get refined petroleum directly from GCC because they sit very near that region via Suez canal. So US only risks losing out on that market if EU and GCC do fall in same orbit. This hurts US long term and makes everyone understand that US is unreliable. Some countries like Pakistan have tasted the bitter end of that.....some will do now.
South America? Africa? South Asia? EU? GCC? All will look at US as an unreliable partner......and partners that are anxious or second guessing, end up falling in other spheres of influence.....which today is China.
The changes are not cheap - and it isnt always few years.
Currently the amount of glut the Venezuelan oil will create will drive a situation in OPEC and impact Saudi 2030 plans and so on.
This will be here 5 years down as a dead thread.
Saudis are not buying anything from brown folks even if it was a UFO.
There is a cultural affliction for western things that goes into "i WANT TO BE THEM".
You cannot fix that.
Even if potentially any grifting and side dealings by Pakistanis are to be dwarfed with what western suppliers might do.
With all due respect, my friend, this is delusional talk. I believe from past discussions that you are familiar with KSA, at least more than people who only know headlines in Western media and general propaganda.
We Arabs are ethnically Caucasian people ourselves racially. Even racist European/American "race experts" from 300-100 years ago, when racism was a normal and slavery a normal in Europe/West (in other words what today would be considered as openly racist views), considered this to be the case. Something that genetics/DNA also confirm given that Europeans are an extension of Middle Eastern peoples racially.
There are plenty of completely pale Saudi Arabians. So skin color has nothing to do with this. The average Arab/Saudi Arabian is olive skinned/brown and even the pale among us have features that differentiate us from Northern Europeans obviously, just as there are obvious similarities with many Southern Europeans "next door".
The idea that KSA does not buy from fellow "brown people", is nonsense. Have you seen the recent close and increasing cooperation with Turkey?
Have you seen that KSA is flooded with non-White expats, many well-educated and in high positions?
The reason why Western products are regarded higher, as is the case almost everywhere in the world, has ZERO to do with skin color, in particular in a country like KSA where you have locals of every race (Caucasian/Middle Eastern/olive skin/Afro-Arab/Indonesian/Turkic Central Asian/even Chinese Hui/every Muslim ethnic group you can think of due to 1400 years of Hajj and Umrah etc., is due to until very recently Europe/West having a MONOPOLY on technology on EVERY front.
We do not have the complexes that other (many) Muslim and non-Muslim communities have (Chinese included who used to pay 1000's of dollars to European origin people just to attend parties/night clubs - well-known) because we were never colonized by Westerners/Europeans. In fact we ruled very large parts of Southern Europe from Iberia (Portugal and Spain) to Greece in the East for 800 years depending on the region, Our influence to this day being felt all across Southern Europe (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Malta, Greece, Cyprus etc.) in the form of architecture, almost 30 World UNESCO Heritage Sites, cuisine, architecture, music, DNA of locals, art, agriculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Agricultural_Revolution , language (20-30% of all Spanish and Portuguese is of Arabic origin) and you name it.
With KSA rapidly developing scientifically, in terms of industries etc. we will look less at the West as something to emulate.
In fact KSA/GCC is far ahead compared to much of Europe and even the US in terms of many aspects, digitalization, less bureaucracy, personal wealth etc.
Race in KSA played very little role, a Afro-Arab person belonging to a well-known Saudi Arabian/Arab tribe had (historically) a higher status than the Arab city dweller who could not document his ancestry. I am surprised that an individual that has apparently visited KSA multiple times is unaware of the above that I have written.
Which is why race was never an element in KSA/much of the Arab world in terms of politics or even influence. Unlike as in other ME countries, without mentioning any here by name.
I will give you an example.
10 years ago when King Abdullah died the Crown Prince became this guy.
Qatar is closer to KSA than even Turkey. We are the same people and Qatar is an extension of KSA. The royal family of Qatar is originally from Najd and still retain villas and family homes in their ancestral villages across Najd. KSA and Qatar are very close nowadays and a direct high-speed railway was just announced last month when Tamim and MbS met. Linking Riyadh with Doha directly. We are on the same page on every regional (that I can think of) conflict and issue nowadays. There was the split 7-8 years ago but it was relatively quickly solved between KSA and Qatar. Things are still a bit sour between Qatar and UAE, Bahrain etc. But there were never any problems with locals, just like today there is no problem between Saudi Arabians and Emirati peoples.
Arab regime politics and problems (like between every country of the world - allies or no allies) has nothing to do with how we Arabs feel towards each other. There were never any problems and never will be. Same with Northern Yemenis and Saudi Arabians. Houthis are here completely irrelevant. This should all be obvious even for non-Arabs here. Most Pakistanis and Afghans (normal) don't have much problems with each other either. Some Pakistanis and Indians have good ties even, seen it in the West and GCC myself and know of such people personally. World is much more complicated than political headlines.
The changes are not cheap - and it isnt always few years.
Currently the amount of glut the Venezuelan oil will create will drive a situation in OPEC and impact Saudi 2030 plans and so on.
Saudi 2030 plans are all but dud even today.....they were always going to falter from day one. NEOM and all that non-sense never made any sense. But Bunch of MBB and Big 4 consultants made shit tons of money and villas in Dubai selling snake oil.
Saudis have realized how unrealistic their goals are and even more so with Oil below 60 USD a barrel.
These guys never learn.
The Venezuela case brings another problem for these GCC sheikhs.....especially the smaller ones like Qatar, Kuwait etc.......that if US can pull Maduro from Venezuela, what is stopping it from doing the same in Kuwait or Qatar or Bahrain?
This will be here 5 years down as a dead thread.
Saudis are not buying anything from brown folks even if it was a UFO.
There is a cultural affliction for western things that goes into "i WANT TO BE THEM".
You cannot fix that.
Even if potentially any grifting and side dealings by Pakistanis are to be dwarfed with what western suppliers might do.
With all due respect, my friend, this is delusional talk. I believe from past discussions that you are familiar with KSA, at least more than people who only know headlines in Western media and general propaganda.
We Arabs are ethnically Caucasian people ourselves racially. Even racist European/American "race experts" from 300-100 years ago, when racism was a normal and slavery a normal in Europe/West (in other words what today would be considered as openly racist views), considered this to be the case. Something that genetics/DNA also confirm given that Europeans are an extension of Middle Eastern peoples racially.
There are plenty of completely pale Saudi Arabians. So skin color has nothing to do with this. The average Arab/Saudi Arabian is olive skinned/brown and even the pale among us have features that differentiate us from Northern Europeans obviously, just as there are obvious similarities with many Southern Europeans "next door".
The idea that KSA does not buy from fellow "brown people", is nonsense. Have you seen the recent close and increasing cooperation with Turkey?
Have you seen that KSA is flooded with non-White expats, many well-educated and in high positions?
The reason why Western products are regarded higher, as is the case almost everywhere in the world, has ZERO to do with skin color, in particular in a country like KSA where you have locals of every race (Caucasian/Middle Eastern/olive skin/Afro-Arab/Indonesian/Turkic Central Asian/even Chinese Hui/every Muslim ethnic group you can think of due to 1400 years of Hajj and Umrah etc., is due to until very recently Europe/West having a MONOPOLY on technology on EVERY front.
We do not have the complexes that other (many) Muslim and non-Muslim communities have (Chinese included who used to pay 1000's of dollars to European origin people just to attend parties/night clubs - well-known) because we were never colonized by Westerners/Europeans. In fact we ruled very large parts of Southern Europe from Iberia (Portugal and Spain) to Greece in the East for 800 years depending on the region, Our influence to this day being felt all across Southern Europe (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Malta, Greece, Cyprus etc.) in the form of architecture, almost 30 World UNESCO Heritage Sites, cuisine, architecture, music, DNA of locals, art, agriculture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Agricultural_Revolution , language (20-30% of all Spanish and Portuguese is of Arabic origin) and you name it.
With KSA rapidly developing scientifically, in terms of industries etc. we will look less at the West as something to emulate.
In fact KSA/GCC is far ahead compared to much of Europe and even the US in terms of many aspects, digitalization, less bureaucracy, personal wealth etc.
Race in KSA played very little role, a Afro-Arab person belonging to a well-known Saudi Arabian/Arab tribe had (historically) a higher status than the Arab city dweller who could not document his ancestry. I am surprised that an individual that has apparently visited KSA multiple times is unaware of the above that I have written.
Which is why race was never an element in KSA/much of the Arab world in terms of politics or even influence. Unlike as in other ME countries, without mentioning any here by name.
I will give you an example.
10 years ago when King Abdullah died the Crown Prince became this guy.
You know the origin of his mother? A former Black Ethiopian slave.
Seriously, I should not even be posting this post to begin with.
Qatar is closer to KSA than even Turkey. We are the same people and Qatar is an extension of KSA. The royal family of Qatar is originally from Najd and still retain villas and family homes in their ancestral villages across Najd. KSA and Qatar are very close nowadays and a direct high-speed railway was just announced last month when Tamim and MbS met. Linking Riyadh with Doha directly. We are on the same page on every regional (that I can think of) conflict and issue nowadays. There was the split 7-8 years ago but it was relatively quickly solved between KSA and Qatar. Things are still a bit sour between Qatar and UAE, Bahrain etc. But there were never any problems with locals, just like today there is no problem between Saudi Arabians and Emirati peoples.
Arab regime politics and problems (like between every country of the world - allies or no allies) has nothing to do with how we Arabs feel towards each other. There were never any problems and never will be. Same with Northern Yemenis and Saudi Arabians. Houthis are here completely irrelevant. This should all be obvious even for non-Arabs here. Most Pakistanis and Afghans (normal) don't have much problems with each other either. Some Pakistanis and Indians have good ties even, seen it in the West and GCC myself and know of such people personally. World is much more complicated than political headlines.
Being familiar with KSA I don’t believe the issue is skin tone more than origin. So the argument you make is fairly tangential and generally not significant.
But from a pure preference of “superiority” the United States, Europe , Asia, India and then Pakistan and Bangladesh come in.
Happy to someday demonstrate exactly what I mean by walking to the ministry of interior offices on King Fahd - with an American Passport versus somebody with a Pakistani passport - even make that Pakistani a multi millionaire.
More likely than not the guards will be wonderful to me, talk politely, the officials will offer me tea while i wait…
The Pakistani however will be treated as labor with little to no respect- never any more.
Skin tone comes in later - because of built up history - just associating with the third world countries means you are lessor of the human dignity.
Not a hard rule and improving a lot with newer Saudi Generations but until Dec 2025 I saw no massive improvement
Being familiar with KSA I don’t believe the issue is skin tone more than origin. So the argument you make is fairly tangential and generally not significant.
But from a pure preference of “superiority” the United States, Europe , Asia, India and then Pakistan and Bangladesh come in.
Happy to someday demonstrate exactly what I mean by walking to the ministry of interior offices on King Fahd - with an American Passport versus somebody with a Pakistani passport - even make that Pakistani a multi millionaire.
More likely than not the guards will be wonderful to me, talk politely, the officials will offer me tea while i wait…
The Pakistani however will be treated as labor with little to no respect- never any more.
Skin tone comes in later - because of built up history - just associating with the third world countries means you are lessor of the human dignity.
Not a hard rule and improving a lot with newer Saudi Generations but until Dec 2025 I saw no massive improvement
So it has nothing to do with race or skin color but more with socioeconomics whenever it occurs. Which was exactly my point and was always the case in Arabia/Arab world and remains the case even among locals/citizens and Arabs alike.
Which is normal given, unfortunately, the large amount of Pakistanis who are not doing their people or country any service. From illegals, criminal elements, beggars to similar lot. We are talking about a minority here overall, without a doubt, but it only requires a small group of people to get a bad reputation among certain circles.
With most Pakistanis and Bangladeshis being manual labor (that changing for the better and in general that segment of ANY labour, Arab included, being reduced for various reasons), some even illiterate, it is not that strange that SOME have predisposed opinions and act differently compared to say an American professor or a European bank director. It is not the right thing to do but it occurs.
But the idea that locals view Westerners as "better" from a racial lens is nonsense. Simply put there are hardly any Westerners of this demography or Westerners who cause any kind of trouble hence the only Westerners many Saudi Arabians know or have interacted with, are the highly educated segment of Westerners. Which gives a false picture.
Just like how certain Europeans only interact with wealthy Saudi Arabian tourists. Or young students.
That said overall Pakistan and Pakistanis are held in high regard by the average person.
Similar to how local Saudi Arabians are put into boxes and treated differently depending on socioeconomic status.
I am sure that you are approaching certain African-American neighborhoods in the US or individuals differently when encountering them in the subway than say some Chinese student. Even instinctively. We are all guilty of such behavior from time to time.
As long as there is no institutional racism and the law is equal for everyone, that is the most important thing. Now how people or communities are perceived by group x or y depends on personal experience and the demography of that group of people.
Same way Pakistanis interact or perceive Afghans working within Pakistan.
BTW Riyadh is not representative of KSA. KSA is the size of Western Europe and 3 times larger than Pakistan with numerous unique socioeconomic regions. Riyadh itself has many various neighborhoods of socioeconomic status.
Manfuhah neighborhood in Riyadh for instance is notorious for its poorer Afro-Arab community, large amount of illegals, higher incidents of crime rate etc. Totally different world from much of Riyadh. Even a non-local Riyadhi and non-Najdi like myself can notice this within a very short time frame.
BTW, the idea of Western technology, goods and services in general being of a higher quality is objectively true. I don't see how that is a bad thing. Just like Chinese stuff was considered close to useless 30-40 years ago but nowadays China is the largest trade partner and you see more Chinese goods than US goods and past reputations are no longer relevant.
BTW as of 2026, there is literally no difference between KSA and Western Europe/West in terms of any rights. The only difference is that there are no workers unions, at least official, and that it remains fairly difficult (but far from impossible) to receive citizenship. The old Kafala system is abolished as well, even though most of the time it did not cause any trouble to have a local sponsor.
As far as citizenship goes, if KSA was to hand out citizenship to every Muhammad, Ali and Ibrahim from the Muslim world, who have lived and worked in KSA for a few years since the 1960's, us locals, would compose maybe 5% of the local population and the entire social welfare system of KSA with free education, no taxation, free healthcare, tons of state and persona benefits would have ended within a few months, leading to the end of the current political system. Meanwhile the West needed workers and had demographic challenges (while KSA had one of the fastest and biggest population growth in the modern era) and could afford it, given that taxation was and remains the backbone of their (states) income, unlike in KSA where this does not exist but I predict will not far from now. Or at some point in time which again will lead to, down the road, most likely, a constitutional monarchy with shared direct power, other than the current tribal/clan affinity between people and state.
In fact well-educated European Muslims (Arabs and non-Arabs) are leaving their homelands to settle/work/live in KSA in very large numbers due to increasing Islamophobia within Europe and the West and fewer opportunities.
Being familiar with KSA I don’t believe the issue is skin tone more than origin. So the argument you make is fairly tangential and generally not significant.
But from a pure preference of “superiority” the United States, Europe , Asia, India and then Pakistan and Bangladesh come in.
Happy to someday demonstrate exactly what I mean by walking to the ministry of interior offices on King Fahd - with an American Passport versus somebody with a Pakistani passport - even make that Pakistani a multi millionaire.
More likely than not the guards will be wonderful to me, talk politely, the officials will offer me tea while i wait…
The Pakistani however will be treated as labor with little to no respect- never any more.
Skin tone comes in later - because of built up history - just associating with the third world countries means you are lessor of the human dignity.
Not a hard rule and improving a lot with newer Saudi Generations but until Dec 2025 I saw no massive improvement
A small example of this was my Umrah to Saudi Arabia last year. As I was exiting the Madinah airport, a Saudi security lady accosted me and demanded what I am doing there. I said I have a visa. She said with a stern tone "Show me the visa". I showed her the Visa and as soon as she saw it was a visa for an American passport, her demeanor instantly changed and she said with a softer tone "Oh United States ? Welcome welcome".
A small example of this was my Umrah to Saudi Arabia last year. As I was exiting the Madinah airport, a Saudi security lady accosted me and demanded what I am doing there. I said I have a visa. She said with a stern tone "Show me the visa". I showed her the Visa and as soon as she saw it was a visa for an American passport, her demeanor instantly changed and she said with a softer tone "Oh United States ? Welcome welcome".
A small example of this was my Umrah to Saudi Arabia last year. As I was exiting the Madinah airport, a Saudi security lady accosted me and demanded what I am doing there. I said I have a visa. She said with a stern tone "Show me the visa". I showed her the Visa and as soon as she saw it was a visa for an American passport, her demeanor instantly changed and she said with a softer tone "Oh United States ? Welcome welcome".
LOL. What is wrong with that? Have you seen the amount of Pakistani and South Asian beggars in Makkah and Madinah and KSA as a whole? It is a massive problem and even an embarrassment for the Pakistani government. Makkah itself, large parts of it, were a total dump because illegals, people without any papers (they themselves destroyed it so they could not be send back to their countries of origin) built illegal slum areas. There was an entire city of illegal Rohingyas alone not very far from Al-Masjid Al-Haram. Such was the state of affairs. Due to the huge influence that the Saudi Arabian clergy once yielded, all of this was permitted due to Islamic solidarity. Basic rules were never implemented because those illegals were all largely Muslim. No matter how much it destroyed Makkah (the city) and local life etc.
This was the situation for decades with more and more such people arriving. Until the government finally had enough and started razing those slums to the ground in order to be able to develop the city. The problem was particular severe in Makkah, less so Madinah, which also explains why Madinah is better off as a city overall.
Those were the illegal slums in questions:
Makkah itself is already by far the hottest city in KSA, extremely difficult geography to built on and in due to the mountainous and tough terrain, dense population and location of Al-Masjid Al-Haram (that cannot be moved) and the way the city has multiplied in terms of size and population in the past decades. As well as past bad planning of newer parts of the city.
Now compare to not very far from Makkah itself (countryside):
Pakistan’s government has implemented measures to clamp down on begging by some of its nationals in the Islamic holy sites in Saudi Arabia, following Riyadh’s recent urging of Islamabad to tackle t…
www.middleeastmonitor.com
Every single week KSA on average deports 20.000 illegals. Al it requires is a simple google search. Nowadays the largest group are Africans, in particular Horners and East Africans. KSA is literally being overrun, as is even small Houthi-controlled North Yemen.
