Pakistan-Saudi Arabia mutual defense pact: News & Discussion

[RescueRanger]

Who are the naked people in Akhand Bharat?

The naked people you can see are the Mauryan's of the Mauryan dynasty- the male is likey king Ashoka, the large stone with ancient sanskrit is likely a reference to the Ashoka Stones or Edicts of Ashoka.

There is one such large stone in Mansehra, Pakistan too:

 

[Alpha]

Qatar isn't on the same team as KSA and UAE. It's closer to Turkey on ME issues. We may sign a bilateral meaningless deal with them but Saudi will never be part of a multi national alliance where they aren't the sole "leader". Hence a Muslim "NATO" will never happen. Even among Arabs.

It only reason it works for the Europeans because an outside overwhelming super power without which their own capabilities and economies are meaningless in over the horizon wars, keeps them in line. ME doesn't have such a force from outside to make them behave.

Türkiye did nothing after Qatar was attacked.

 

[Oscar]

So, you're suggesting that all of us living abroad are the smart Pakistanis and the Pakistanis currently living in Pakistan are all the worthless dumb and stupid people that have been left behind?

Do we know how many smart people are left in Pakistan or have they all migrated abroad now and there's no hope for Pakistan?

Well that would depend on where you personally are living.

However, for the more serious folks on the call the simple fact is more smart people want to leave than stay and as they get success replacing lost skills becomes more and more difficult and scarce.

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

Türkiye did nothing after Qatar was attacked.

And?

 

[r3alist]

As for attacking India Pakistanis dreams of china Saudi qatar turkey ganging up on India is cartoon stuff

Hang on, China and turkey already did help. You already got gang treatment.

Now Saudi is in the mix.

So this pact will just end up being nothing imo

I'm sure you guys will be willing to test it soon.

 

[Meengla]

Many interesting things going on with Saudi - Pak defense pact.
The main players are going to be USA and China.
USA has lot of influence in GCC states, their men and bases and obviously black gold aka oil.
GCC countries have lot of influence in Muslim nations through Saudi’s holy sites.
Pak siding with USA at this juncture might make China think twice now. They have been through lot and remained loyal in your friendship. Same goes with Saudi too.
These tangents are all intricately connected.
The outliers are Israel (aggressor Saudi’s don’t like and don’t want) India (Pakistan thinks them as aggressors)

You seem to be living in a past long gone. For Americans, the Middle East oil is not as important due to America's own productivity but oil could be a tool to keep other countries in check, including India. China, my guess is, more than pleased with Pakistan getting some cash to buy the Chinese and/or American weapons; maybe the Chinese are tired of Pakistanis constantly needing bail outs. Also, most analysts now saying that Israel's extremely stupid attack targeting Qatar recently accelerated the Pak-KSA agreement; on that, I tend to think the Americans were not onboard even if they couldn't do much to stop Israel. America's domestic politics gives Israel so much advantage that an Israeli PM gets invited to America and manages to ignore the sitting President's sensitivities sometimes. Plus, who knows what kind of 'files' are present about Trump? The guy is a not a paragon of virtues. Maybe Americans have concluded that some checks need to be placed on Israel which has gone totally rogue? Maybe Pakistan is really given a role to check Israel's stupid behavior and to reassure the Arab countries? Or maybe even the Saudis, having seen the Iranian defiance and the American desire to de-escalate then, are having some backbone? We don't know what's going on--we are all guessing here.

India will not make a move now and will wait till all or few of the scenarios play out. There is no rush for us now. GCC is not going to throw out all the Indians right away. Even if they start now it will take minimum 5 years to 10 years to replace all Indians with Pakistanis. Now we should get some popcorn an watch the show.

India is irrelevant into the foreseeable future. Some have even said above that India is 'checkmated'.

 

[Oscar]

You didn't respond to my post. It is obvious this topic has political messaging where no matter what we say or give evidence of, the "crow will be white" when in reality, its black.

In today's world, you can't expect people to not move. Movement and immigration are common across all lower income nations. Even in the richest and hi-tech places like the USA in companies like Google, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, it's common to lose a whole team working on a sensitive project. Do they shut down? NO! They RETRAIN from the human resources available. I can give you a dozen example and write a small book on this topic. It's not a brain drain, it's just part of the world we live in now.

Personal experience, there was a project X we were working closely with a massive US team. One of their executives left. We learned about it and said "ok". Soon enough, within 4 weeks in two batches, 18 out of 20 people left that hi-tech project, they resigned and moved directly to a competitor for a top end project on sensitive stuff. Now we were left with just 2 people. The US executives jumped in, apologized and asked for a 3 week gap so they could re-train employees. After a 4 week delay, the project was back on track. I can't write all details here but that project in PKR was worth dozens of billions rupees.

The rest of the data about the missiles and JF-17 is made up, in an effort to link it to imaginary issue of brain drain. There is no "substantive proofs" for it.

However, I will say this, if we've come across short falls and any delays in these projects, it's due to training and funding. Hopefully that won't be the case going to the future. You can't blame a "training" issue on "immigration" or people leaving.

Our education system's curriculum is extremely verbose, theory based. Our engineers read the same books they teach in other countries, but they pass their engineering exams through memorizing or "ratta". That's not a brain drain problem. That's an education system's issue to lack practicality. We need to build practical educational system that teaches practical implementation of theories throughout engineering degrees. People get to actually produce one or two REAL projects for each course they take.

The Chinese have complained a lot about this and we have had to re-train our people in multiple Polytech institutes in China. Meaning, our people had to re-take the SAME courses they had taken in their engineering degrees already. Why? Because they took the course, there was no R&D capability at the university in aviation sector specifically. So they passed the course by memorizing the book, got the job but had basic knowledge of practical implementation.

Problem here is also funding because you need money for R&D labs to be setup in Pakistan's engineering schools. So this is not a brain drain issue, this is an educational system's problem.

In US, millions of jobs were lost to Indians. People who had worked for decades even, in companies like Boeing, Disney, Honey Well, etc. They brought Indians in, made them sit next to American employees and gave them 4 weeks of training. Decades of knowledge was transferred in 4 weeks and the work continues.

How many times did we hear that a big company stopped operations because the real talent was fired in thousands and the new comers, the Indians couldn't manage it? Practical training is everything backed by funding for training.

To think that one human leaving a post will never be filled by another one is like world war II era thinking. It's like our grand parents would say, you now have a job, you'll remain here until you turn 60. It doesn't work like that in practical life. Every human is replaceable with education and training.

With our population growing so fast, we produce talent very fast. If we were a nation of 40 or 70 million people losing a few % annually, yes you could see a point. But with our 5th largest population, the brain drain isn't applicable. Sadly, you can hire basic clerks with MBA's and MS in Finance for literally 50,000-75,000 rupees. That's like $300-400 dollars a month and the talent pool is available at mass scale. So, no brain drain is applicable on Pakistan.

You say migration is normal. Everyone moves. Fine. Then why does the World Bank record over 800,000 Pakistanis leaving in a single year? That is not a trickle. That is a flood. Call it what it is.

Your story about American defense engineers walking out and the project bouncing back in four weeks? Fiction. Sensitive aerospace projects do not reboot on coffee and apologies. The US has entire clearance systems precisely because replacing skilled teams takes years - maybe if you were actually familiar with the process . And on the off chance If your tale were true, it only proves how catastrophic losing an entire team is. Not how harmless.

You dismiss JF-17 and missile delays as fantasy. Convenient. Yet the Parliamentary Committee on Defence in 2021 admitted skilled shortages caused slowdowns. Chinese partners have complained about retraining Pakistani engineers. Those are official records. Not gossip.

You blame rote learning. You are right that universities push memorization. But explain this. If our engineers are so hollow, why do the same graduates thrive in Canada, the Gulf, or the United States? They succeed abroad because the environment supports them. Which means Pakistan loses trained talent the moment they become valuable. That is the definition of brain drain.

You claim everyone is replaceable. A clerk, yes. A neurosurgeon, no. An aerospace engineer trained at state expense? No. Pakistan spends tens of thousands of dollars to develop each PhD. When that person leaves, the country does not retrain in four weeks. It loses years of investment.

You argue population size protects us. That is sleight of hand. If headcount solved the problem, Nigeria would be a tech giant. Bangladesh would lead in aerospace. They do not. The IMF has flagged skilled emigration as a structural weakness in Pakistan’s economy.

Bedtime stories about replaceability or training gaps will not change the feathers.
It’s clear you made all of your post up to try and justify your need to argue to be right.

Making up personal experience and being dismissive of others shows someone purely incapable of actual discussion.
Starting to agree with @arslank01 assessment of you.

I provided you with the narrative and can easily provide you references by studies. Lets see what you can find to back yourself up. Probably nothing much like your military or strategic threads.

Take JamDs advice - it is much kinder than my opinion it this point.

 

[krash]

700 Qadianis are serving Zionazi genocidal army ? I am not surprised they are duplicitous and want the Muslims defeated on their knees so that they can spread their vomit. They started when the Muslims were defeated and demoralized by the British in 1880s. Now they want to create same environment .

Israel does not allow non-Jewish immigrants. Maybe stop listening to every imbecile out there?

There's a few million Ahmadis around the world, let me know which dastardly schemes have they hatched so far.

Not the Qadiyanis. Our habbit of giving them extra ordinary importance is kinda silly.

700 muslims serving in IDF not 700 Qadianis. I don't understand how that vlogger came to know about figure "700".

@FarhanSiddiqui you added them in there yourself? Great job buddy. Let us also know what the lizard people are doing these days.

This is why this defense pact will fail completely

For Pakistan it's one motive only we need Saudi money to improve our defense against a increasing powerful and belligerent Hindi extreme modi India....

For Saudi it is we need alternative defense pact including nuclear umbrella against Iran and especially Israel ...backed by USA

The problem we have USA is all over the gulf states with 50000 troops and 20plus bases they will not leave no matter what Saudi says ...

So this pact will just end up being nothing imo

The reason being Pakistan is not capable of defending anybody barely itself ...if has no money or military eco system

All it can do is invite china
Inviting china is collision course with USA ...

Israel will want to take out Pak nukes guaranteed if it becomes gulf NATO type body ...you think Israel will stand by ...no chance

Finally if will maybe push India Israel and USA Into massive new nexus

As for attacking India Pakistanis dreams of china Saudi qatar turkey ganging up on India is cartoon stuff

You people need to understand USA needs energy supply the ain't giving up oil to anyone
Not china not Saudi Pak military alliance bringing in china

Even china will stay away fearing USA bscklash

And if worse comes to worse, the Indian cricket team can always establish Akhand Bharat by refusing handshakes, like the sissies that they are.

 

[Alpha]

And?

Türkiye has just been cheating on Qatar's money, and it is no different from the United States.

 

[r3alist]

So we are agreed guys

It's against
Israel Iran and India

No , but nice try.








I can already see signs of India trying to distance itself from Israel.


That would not be wise


But then again would modi even feel comfortable giving nethanyahoo a big hug these days?

You guys are going to disown Israel right?

 

[r3alist]

You say migration is normal. Everyone moves. Fine. Then why does the World Bank record over 800,000 Pakistanis leaving in a single year? That is not a trickle. That is a flood. Call it what it is.

Your story about American defense engineers walking out and the project bouncing back in four weeks? Fiction. Sensitive aerospace projects do not reboot on coffee and apologies. The US has entire clearance systems precisely because replacing skilled teams takes years - maybe if you were actually familiar with the process . And on the off chance If your tale were true, it only proves how catastrophic losing an entire team is. Not how harmless.

You dismiss JF-17 and missile delays as fantasy. Convenient. Yet the Parliamentary Committee on Defence in 2021 admitted skilled shortages caused slowdowns. Chinese partners have complained about retraining Pakistani engineers. Those are official records. Not gossip.

You blame rote learning. You are right that universities push memorization. But explain this. If our engineers are so hollow, why do the same graduates thrive in Canada, the Gulf, or the United States? They succeed abroad because the environment supports them. Which means Pakistan loses trained talent the moment they become valuable. That is the definition of brain drain.

You claim everyone is replaceable. A clerk, yes. A neurosurgeon, no. An aerospace engineer trained at state expense? No. Pakistan spends tens of thousands of dollars to develop each PhD. When that person leaves, the country does not retrain in four weeks. It loses years of investment.

You argue population size protects us. That is sleight of hand. If headcount solved the problem, Nigeria would be a tech giant. Bangladesh would lead in aerospace. They do not. The IMF has flagged skilled emigration as a structural weakness in Pakistan’s economy.

Bedtime stories about replaceability or training gaps will not change the feathers.
It’s clear you made all of your post up to try and justify your need to argue to be right.

Making up personal experience and being dismissive of others shows someone purely incapable of actual discussion.
Starting to agree with @arslank01 assessment of you.

I provided you with the narrative and can easily provide you references by studies. Lets see what you can find to back yourself up. Probably nothing much like your military or strategic threads.

Take JamDs advice - it is much kinder than my opinion it this point.

This post here is an epic, speaking from the heart and mind


I just wanted to acknowledge it.

 

[FarhanSiddiqui]

Israel does not allow non-Jewish immigrants. Maybe stop listening to every imbecile out there?

They have volunteer American Christian Zionist soldiers in their army.

 

[harpy1]

No , but nice try.








I can already see signs of India trying to distance itself from Israel.


That would not be wise


But then again would modi even feel comfortable giving nethanyahoo a big hug these days?

You guys are going to disown Israel right?

India will do what it always has done from 1947 it will Try and balance relationships

India is a strategic ally of Israel deep in defense technology and Israel has always assisted India ...
I just can't see this changing ever ..

As for Saudi and the gulf states like UAE or Kuwait etc they are massive trade partners ten times what Pakistan is to them ...Trade is massive India will.use this leverage as a massive market to keep Saudi and gulf states neutral

Saudi or gulf have never backed Pakistan against Kashmir let's see if this changes ...now

My question to you Pakistanis Which I don't see any one dare answer
When a rogue Israel attacks Kuwait or Saudi ....what is Pakistan going to do about it ...
Are you going to rattle nuke sabre at Israel
Because the following day Israel will almost certainly treat you as a existentional threat

Pakistan may have joined the Arab Israeli conflict which is destined to take out the entire mid East one day ....
It's two way defense pact
Not Saudi just give you have to spill blood and risk all for them too

 

[krash]

They have volunteer American Christian Zionist soldiers in their army.

Stop peddling nonsense against an already oppressed community of Pakistanis.

 

[r3alist]

India will do what it always has done from 1947 it will Try and balance relationships

India is a strategic ally of Israel deep in defense technology and Israel has always assisted India ...
I just can't see this changing ever ..

As for Saudi and the gulf states like UAE or Kuwait etc they are massive trade partners ten times what Pakistan is to them ...Trade is massive India will.use this leverage as a massive market to keep Saudi and gulf states neutral

Saudi or gulf have never backed Pakistan against Kashmir let's see if this changes ...now

My question to you Pakistanis Which I don't see any one dare answer
When a rogue Israel attacks Kuwait or Saudi ....what is Pakistan going to do about it ...
Are you going to rattle nuke sabre at Israel
Because the following day Israel will almost certainly treat you as a existentional threat

Pakistan may have joined the Arab Israeli conflict which is destined to take out the entire mid East one day ....
It's two way defense pact
Not Saudi just give you have to spill blood and risk all for them too

So going forward your trade with Saudi Arabia will fund Saudi investment into Pakistan.

The question really was, is India going to proudly and openly embrace Israel as a key ally? It's a yes or no type of answer