Pakistan-Saudi Arabia mutual defense pact: News & Discussion
- Thread starter Yasser76
- Start date
mythbuster
Trusted Member
An Italian American friend of mine once said ! All the immigrants are traitors to their own countries.Here we go. Can't address based on facts, so let's twist the topic and try to insult the person. And the entire political gang "likes" the post! Might as well put IK's pic on top of the reply to, so in case ANYONE hasn't gotten the drift, can see it clearly as to why this repeated propaganda is being generated.
Accusing me of somehow "scamming" this defense forum with my experience. I don't mind that at all, it's funny. I've proven myself in very big places across the globe many times. Trying to impress or establish "credentials" on a web forum is hardly envious for me.
On topic, give me 5 studies done on India, Pakistan and China please regarding brain drain and it's effect. And by credible sources. Let's see.
I've already stated my opinion on the topic. I stand by it. Nations with less population around or below 50/70 million or some plus/minus, with higher educated percentage leaving the country should use this term. Countries like Pakistan, India, etc, this doesn't apply. There is NO skillset that can't be replaced via proper training and talent. Yes, we spend resources on talent, but this talent is a "Brain Gain" if he or she goes to the US or UK, makes it to the top (which Pakistanis barely make sadly), or, becomes successful at some business, helps Pakistan and Pakistanis in creating more opportunity. That's how Indians and Chinese have done so much for their nations. We can do it if we can get out of "my di*k is bigger than yours syndrome" like this thread. If we can unite for our nation, we can do wonders overseas too.
Also, elaborate for me what's the US's clearance system you referred to. The way you wrote about it, tells me you don't know anything about what you wrote and it was more like an "impress others" statement to fool people. So do clarify it. Remember, those who know, can't be beaten by google content or AI generated details. I'll ask you operational questions afterwards that one would ONLY know when worked in those areas. So please explain.
Lastly, I've seen it many times in my life, that, a team is either lost to a competitor over a few weeks, or, a team walks out because vendor negotiations failed (yes, the entire team), or, government decided to terminate a program or terminate people in quantity due to unethical actions. I gave you 4 use cases here from practical life. But from your post, like that other genius Arslan, it's obvious you guys don't have that high exposure into executive management, so naturally you'll speak from your own experience base, that's natural. What you don't know, you don't know. Us Pakistanis think "we know everything". So kindly share the things I asked above. Thanks.
Sam6536
Registered Member
Yes it was mutually beneficial for India-American to limit China's influence and keep them engaged. This reversed under Trump, he wanted India to be more aggresive towards China while he withdrew America from Asia. He essentially wanted India to function as America's guard dog in Asia.
Final key in coffin was India's insistence on continuing Trade with Russia against American demands.
You refer to internal documents, India's major threat has to be China due to the very close proximity. The reason for the current detente is due to America receding back from the global stage. If American support is not coming QUAD is dead. Even as a part of QUAD India drew certain redlines which came as a bummer to the US.
Our nuclear program is for the defence of our own sovereignty it's not really directed at anyone. No first use policy is in place. Nuclear weapons are meant to be a final key dettarance, the day they are used is when all hell will break loose globally.
America enjoyed decades of prosperity and no blowback for dropping the bomb on the Japs due to no one having nukes or understanding the implications of such nukes back then. Current nukes overshadow the nukes dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki by a a big extent.
Oscar
Moderator
Here are 5 studies - your turn Mr Crow. Lets see what dances you do now.Here we go. Can't address based on facts, so let's twist the topic and try to insult the person. And the entire political gang "likes" the post! Might as well put IK's pic on top of the reply to, so in case ANYONE hasn't gotten the drift, can see it clearly as to why this repeated propaganda is being generated.
Accusing me of somehow "scamming" this defense forum with my experience
On topic, give me 5 studies done on India, Pakistan and China please regarding brain drain and it's effect. And by credible sources. Let's see.
I've already stated my opinion on the topic. I stand by it. Nations with less population around or below 50/70 million or some plus/minus, with higher educated percentage leaving the country should use this term. Countries like Pakistan, India, etc, this doesn't apply. There is NO skillset that can't be replaced via proper training and talent. Yes, we spend resources on talent, but this talent is a "Brain Gain" if he or she goes to the US or UK, makes it to the top (which Pakistanis barely make sadly), or, becomes successful at some business, helps Pakistan and Pakistanis in creating more opportunity. That's how Indians and Chinese have done so much for their nations. We can do it if we can get out of "my di*k is bigger than yours syndrome" like this thread. If we can unite for our nation, we can do wonders overseas too.
Also, elaborate for me what's the US's clearance system you referred to. The way you wrote about it, tells me you don't know anything about what you wrote and it was more like an "impress others" statement to fool people. So do clarify it. Remember, those who know, can't be beaten by google content or AI generated details. I'll ask you operational questions afterwards that one would ONLY know when worked in those areas. So please explain.
Lastly, I've seen it many times in my life, that, a team is either lost to a competitor over a few weeks, or, a team walks out because vendor negotiations failed (yes, the entire team), or, government decided to terminate a program or terminate people in quantity due to unethical actions. I gave you 4 use cases here from practical life. But from your post, like that other genius Arslan, it's obvious you guys don't have that high exposure into executive management, so naturally you'll speak from your own experience base, that's natural. What you don't know, you don't know. Us Pakistanis think "we know everything". So kindly share the things I asked above. Thanks.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/5292332.pdf?abstractid=5292332&mirid=1
https://fujbe.fui.edu.pk/index.php/fujbe/article/view/890
https://policyjournalofms.com/index.php/6/article/view/827
https://ideapublishers.org/index.php/lassij/article/view/104
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10833047/
Oscar
Moderator
A Mongolian immigrant once told me all those who stayed behind are critical of immigrants because they are deeply jealous of not getting the opportunity and would kill for it.
RajaBaja
Trusted Member
@Raj-Hindustani @vasanthm @SoulSpokesman @Beijingwalker @nang2
I have a question, do any of you have experience in top level executive management ideally in the defense sector, or military or corporate? Corporate is least needed but we'll take it. I once talked to an Indian member, very polished with MC background but don't remember his screen id. He might be of help also due to MC background.
I am biased due to being in this discussion so my opinion doesn't count. The remainder of the folks who've touched the topic, clearly lack that global leadership experience. So if anyone here is at that level, kindly ask him to jump in and give us his opinion on my posts above about loss of teams due to various reasons.
One member thinks it doesn't happen as well as people who leave work can't easily be back-filled and we are in 2025!
I have a question, do any of you have experience in top level executive management ideally in the defense sector, or military or corporate? Corporate is least needed but we'll take it. I once talked to an Indian member, very polished with MC background but don't remember his screen id. He might be of help also due to MC background.
I am biased due to being in this discussion so my opinion doesn't count. The remainder of the folks who've touched the topic, clearly lack that global leadership experience. So if anyone here is at that level, kindly ask him to jump in and give us his opinion on my posts above about loss of teams due to various reasons.
One member thinks it doesn't happen
as well as people who leave work can't easily be back-filled and we are in 2025!SoulSpokesman
Trusted Member
Vkdindian1
Registered Member
It is not the capability of one arm of the defence forces. It is the combined capability of all its resources.
I guess, mention of Brahmos and Scalp would derail the discussion, so I would refrain but disagree on the relative pull.
What has it been able to do in South Asia to achieve this status ? Trade volume is one indicator. Just check the volumes and you would know, who stands where.
Nope. Even such trinkets are kept for times and people to keep their apparent value. These nations aren’t obliged to make Modi happy for no reason.
Oscar
Moderator
Lol@Raj-Hindustani @vasanthm @SoulSpokesman @Beijingwalker @nang2
I have a question, do any of you have experience in top level executive management ideally in the defense sector, or military or corporate? Corporate is least needed but we'll take it. I once talked to an Indian member, very polished with MC background but don't remember his screen id. He might be of help also due to MC background.
I am biased due to being in this discussion so my opinion doesn't count. The remainder of the folks who've touched the topic, clearly lack that global leadership experience. So if anyone here is at that level, kindly ask him to jump in and give us his opinion on my posts above about loss of teams due to various reasons.
One member thinks it doesn't happen
Now he is desperate
Lets add the context for these people so your vague attempt to ask the question isn’t lost
The actual question is
If people leave and there isn’t a backfill of equal skill and experience available in your region
What happens ?
r3alist
Elite Member
.
But that's the thing, India did not actually do any containing
Most of its military posture is to Pakistan , disproportionately
It looks like the last Pak military leadership played strategic possum , and gave India the space and time to prove its inertness taking on China
You will want to play this down but it will simply look comical for India to pretend it's taking on China but posture towards Pakistan for much longer.
And then showing quite determined loyalty to Russia, well that puts you more in neutral or enemy Territory
Non-aligned to everyone, potential enemy to everyone as well
But that's the thing, India did not actually do any containing
Most of its military posture is to Pakistan , disproportionately
It looks like the last Pak military leadership played strategic possum , and gave India the space and time to prove its inertness taking on China
You will want to play this down but it will simply look comical for India to pretend it's taking on China but posture towards Pakistan for much longer.
And then showing quite determined loyalty to Russia, well that puts you more in neutral or enemy Territory
Non-aligned to everyone, potential enemy to everyone as well
Meengla
Elite Member
Most of the time, the Turkey-Israel relationship wasn't as much in focus until the Gaza slaughter started almost two years ago; until then, skirmishes here and there involving Israel, where Israel would 'mow the lawn' in Gaza, the Turks would make some noises, but things would be back to normal between the two countries. The Israel-Gaza conflict was / is on a different level not only as far as the atrocities but also astronomically more noticed because of the number of countries involved since October 2023--and that was on top of the Russia-Ukraine war. My point is: Turkey has been in the spotlight much more now.
India and Israel relationship is much different. Very different. We all look at things through tribal ways and so most of the Muslim world see India+Israel as two Non Muslim entities on one side against Muslims on the other side. That's not dissimilar to how the white Christian Europeans see 'the others'. We are all basically tribal.
Oscar
Moderator
Neem hakeem category. Now apparently is alluding to C-suite considerations which when applied here would be even more damning to him.
After all, google just hired talent and is paying them $600k a year to just “sit” and wait until a project comes in fear of losing them.
Maybe I should post that news but the he would dismiss it as well, project onto others about being attacked after taking that approach himself and then make up another story.
FarhanSiddiqui
Registered Member
I did not start this thread. Please read from the beginning.
Tamerlane
Trusted Member
Here we go. Can't address based on facts, so let's twist the topic and try to insult the person. And the entire political gang "likes" the post! Might as well put IK's pic on top of the reply to, so in case ANYONE hasn't gotten the drift, can see it clearly as to why this repeated propaganda is being generated.
Accusing me of somehow "scamming" this defense forum with my experience
On topic, give me 5 studies done on India, Pakistan and China please regarding brain drain and it's effect. And by credible sources. Let's see.
I've already stated my opinion on the topic. I stand by it. Nations with less population around or below 50/70 million or some plus/minus, with higher educated percentage leaving the country should use this term. Countries like Pakistan, India, etc, this doesn't apply. There is NO skillset that can't be replaced via proper training and talent. Yes, we spend resources on talent, but this talent is a "Brain Gain" if he or she goes to the US or UK, makes it to the top (which Pakistanis barely make sadly), or, becomes successful at some business, helps Pakistan and Pakistanis in creating more opportunity. That's how Indians and Chinese have done so much for their nations. We can do it if we can get out of "my di*k is bigger than yours syndrome" like this thread. If we can unite for our nation, we can do wonders overseas too.
Also, elaborate for me what's the US's clearance system you referred to. The way you wrote about it, tells me you don't know anything about what you wrote and it was more like an "impress others" statement to fool people. So do clarify it. Remember, those who know, can't be beaten by google content or AI generated details. I'll ask you operational questions afterwards that one would ONLY know when worked in those areas. So please explain.
Lastly, I've seen it many times in my life, that, a team is either lost to a competitor over a few weeks, or, a team walks out because vendor negotiations failed (yes, the entire team), or, government decided to terminate a program or terminate people in quantity due to unethical actions. I gave you 4 use cases here from practical life. But from your post, like that other genius Arslan, it's obvious you guys don't have that high exposure into executive management, so naturally you'll speak from your own experience base, that's natural. What you don't know, you don't know. Us Pakistanis think "we know everything". So kindly share the things I asked above. Thanks.
There’s nothing wrong with what you’re saying. It’s possible that for a limited project replacements can be found.
The issue is whether sending more workers to Saudi Arabia and the GCC is a solution for Pakistan’s lack of development.
In the macro picture, a country like Pakistan, with 250 million people, needs large scale investment along with more educational institutions to kick start economic development. A couple of million jobs in the ME cannot be a substitute for internal reform.
When Pakistan won the 4-day skirmish with India it enhanced the reputation of the military and weakened the demand for democracy. SAM became a Field Marshal and his position became secure.
The danger is that the Pak-Saudi deal will allow the rulers to deflect any demand for internal reforms by creating hope for jobs in the ME. I can see that the Sharifs and Zardaris are now more secure than before. It means that the status quo will be maintained in Pakistan, meaning no economic development. I can’t see businessmen investing in Pakistan when these characters are running the country.
RajaBaja
Trusted Member
I asked you for resources with credentials!! This one link is the only one with credentials but the issue is, they are all the same, they have some text, some have more text. There is NO research done whatsoever!! Check out your other sources too. No "research" criteria or hypothesis or results of "research" making a "hypothesis"!
Have you ever done real research on anything and written a thesis? Where are the use cases, industries they went to, analyzed economy, analyzed that talent (or brain drain's) overseas activities, success, failures, how they helped others from Pakistan or some industry in Pakistan to grow. Whether they did any of it or not, etc, etc. Prove to me that the "brain drain" term can be APPLIED on Pakistan because it has an impact on something. ALL of the above items I mentioned, are a part of the evaluation criteria to come to a hypothesis that YES, based on ALL these factors RESEARCHED with X,Y,Z results, it is concluded it is "brain drain" or it's NOT brain drain because the effects were marginalized due to labor availability, etc, etc.
The links you shared, ONLY have text lines of "we think it's brain drain because 880k people left due to political instability"? WHAT BULLSH8? Where is the RESEARCH? evaluation on something like an economy or macroeconomic or industries?
EXAMPLE: A paper says a bunch of F-15's capabilities and it says F-15 is a stealth plane because America said so. I am sure like you, many Americans will believe in this paper! Now another paper says "During RCS tests from frontal aspects, the AESA radar in X band could produce a .0002 (ms)2 RCS, while in Y band in VHF, it produced .0005 (mc)2 RCS and in UHF S/X band, it produced .0005 (ms)2 RCS. Another study used random AESA beams from a simulated target of 100 miles to 5 miles and was able to identify the F-35 with similar RCS from previous studies to be the same. THEREFOR THE F-35 is CONCLUDED TO BE STEALTHY! This is how a research is done. Not writing text statements.
If these were your "research studies", my long posts should be papers too because that was what was in your "research studies", not study just text and "opinions"!
Post some REAL research per the criteria I defined for you. Someone here should know what "research study" is!
