Parsis and Hindutva's Ethnic Nationalism in India

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Part 5 Conclusion

Remembering acculturation

Whereas for Savarkar it is stories of loyalty and commonality that are the basis for differentiating between minorities, for Golwalkar it is also the minority's public acculturation of Hindu symbols (Jaffrelot 2011, 46). He expressed this in the story that began this article in which Parsis were required to accept Hindu symbols such as respect for cows. As the question of loyalty simultaneously includes Parsis and excludes Muslims, so too does the demand to acculturate and be commensurable. Again, the comparison denies their very different historical experiences and is the remembering of a story designed to exclude Muslims. It is not a neutral demand.

Zoroastrianism and Brahminical Hinduism have a shared origin, they are familial. The oldest religious texts of both Hindus and Zoroastrians are composed in mutually intelligible coeval languages. They have a common ancestral Indo-Iranian religion from which they are both derived. They have diverged and there are differences but their common root provides a fertile ground for a discourse of acculturation and commensurability. The similarities and differences enable a comparative exposition of each tradition in their early stages. Zoroastrians and Hindus have engaged in a productive comparative dialogue for many centuries. Parsis and Hindus have been translating Zoroastrian ideas into a Hindu idiom even prior to the 1599 Qesse-ye Sanjan in the form of the Sixteen Sanskrit Slokas (Williams 2009, 233; Verse 167-181 Williams 2009, 87–91). From the 19th century both drew upon philology to understand both of their traditions historically (Chattopadhyaya 1894; Desai 1904; Hodivala 1925; Chapekar 1982). In the story by Golwalkar that began this article, the Hindu king demanded that the Parsis respect the cow. This is an adaptation of the Parsis own tradition. In the Qesse-ye Sanjan the Parsi priest says to the Hindu king 'We offer our respect to fire and water, and likewise to the cow, the sun and moon.' (Williams 2009, 87 Verse 169) The demand to acculturate does not entail a demand to shed Zoroastrianism. It is the public adaptation of certain practices of a familial tradition. The similarities and differences are constitutive.

In contemporary Hindutva thought Parsis and Muslims are distinguished by their acculturation. In an interview the playwright of the 2013 Gujarat Day play lauded the Parsis' contribution to the states culture as pioneers of Gujarati journalism, drama and their celebrated poets. He exalted the nationalist Parsis involved in the freedom struggle and his Parsi friends. It was not only in their contribution to Gujarat but in his words, that they 'have become 100% Gujarati'. For him Parsis have acculturated the traditions of Gujarati Hindus. He recounted the ancient links between Iran and India, of the Iranians who featured in the Indian epic the Mahabharata and the customs that Parsis and Hindus shared. There was a commonality between the Parsis traditions and his own Hindu traditions.

This is not the case for Muslims for whom the demand to acculturate Hindu symbols is a demand to shed Islam. The ancestors of South Asian Muslims have come to Islam through a variety of complex processes from migration to conversion (Eaton 1985; Eaton 1993). Muslims often share cultural expressions with Hindus of the same ethnicity while parting with those radically incompatible with Islam. Given that the difference between Muslims and Hindus belonging to the same language group is primarily in religious practice, the demand to acculturate is a demand to shed Islam. If Muslims concede and discard Islamic practices and symbols they become good Muslims, but only for a transitory moment. In this denial they cease to be Muslim and are subsumed at the bottom of the Hindu caste system. If they retain any outward expression of Islam, they are an anti-national threatening minority. This is not to suggest that there are no grounds for a dialogue between Hindus and Muslims. Such a dialogue is ongoing in India, but it is not one of acculturation and it is not one that Hindutva draws upon.

The Hindutva story of Muslims in India is the antithesis of acculturation because it remembers forced conversion and the destruction of temples. An official involved in the annual Gujarat Day play said ‘Parsis don't create problems over religion and are not violent.’ The religious problem he alludes to is conversion; an exemplary minority does not proselytise. Parsis generally do not accept converts to their religion of Zoroastrianism. With proselytisation, Muslims and Christians do not seek to adopt Hindu practices but negate them through conversion. Christian and Muslim proselytising is intimately tied to Hindu nationalism (Jaffrelot, 2007, 233). For Hindutva conversion presents two problems. First is that their movement is founded on the idea of a majoritarian Hindu nation, the gradual erosion of that numerical ascendency undermines the argument for a Hindu India. The second is in a democracy a Hindu nationalist movement requires a Hindu majority if it is going to form government (Menon, 2003, 43). Comparing the acculturation of Parsis and Muslims is comparing the incomparable. It is comparing a story of coexistence with a story of exclusion in order to advance a contemporary political agenda.

Conclusion

The ethnic nationalist framework for understanding movements such as Hindutva explains how a majority ethnic group is imagined against a threatening Other but it does explain their affection for some minority communities. While the use of threatening minorities establishes the nation as unitary, the use of exemplary minorities by ethnic nationalists movements such as Hindutva or terms such as Model Minorities enables the imagination of a plural society. A nationalist movement in an ethnically diverse society needs an exemplary minority in order to imagine the self as plural. Parsis serve this purpose, they illustrate the munificence and plurality of Hindus.

An exemplary minority establishes why other minorities are threatening. In plural societies an exemplary minority is predicated on the existence of a threatening one. In India, Parsis are exemplary because Muslims are threatening and vice versa. The exemplary minority is the model of what other minorities must but cannot become. Its use in India does not address Parsis, but Muslims exhorting them to follow the Parsi example.

Whether a minority is exemplary or threatening has little to do with their actions, rather it is determined by the political requirements of the present and how the demand to be loyal and acculturate has previously been answered. These are rhetorical questions and demands. A hierarchy of minorities is established by remembering a story of loyalty and acculturation that denies each community’s historical specificity. It is a denial of how each person and community came to find themselves in the situation they are today. It is the use of a politically charged remembered story in the guise of a historical understanding.

For ethnic nationalists a story of coexistence is tied to a story of conflict. When a story of coexistence that uses a treaty trading refuge for loyalty and acculturation is used on its own it can constitute a community as a unique entity and negotiate the similarities and differences between the majority and minority communities. But when that story is read against another of disloyalty its effect is to exclude. The comparison is not problematic for the exemplary minority, but it is for the threatening minority. The use of the exemplary minority, or model minority is not benign, it is an assault on those already discriminated against in order to imagine the self as plural.

Concluded

Source: https://openresearch-repository.anu...k-Parsis-Hindutva-ethnic-nationalism-2017.pdf

Interesting piece. Not dissimilar to what has been often said here. By the Other.

Cheers, Doc
There is a very very very fundamental reason behind this.

Parsis do not seek to convert or even allow others to join their religion. Hindus are same, though Hindus tend to keep their religion fairly public. Parsis like to keep it a very private affair. This removes an immediate bone of contention among both. Infact, to be very very honest.... Hinduism does not really have a mechanism to covert into it. You can possibly return to Hinduism but there is no real widely accepted formal way to become a Hindu. Even marrying is not enough.

Actually lived experience of Jews in India is similar too for very similar reason. Jews do not wish others to join Judaism and like to keep their community closed.

Fundamental problem with Islam and Christiniaity is that both seek to convert others. This creates a major political bone of contention with other religions.
 
Still. Its not been an easy journey. Without the continued threat of annihilation ... or assimilation.

This is a fascinating piece.

If you want to see how Parsis have survived and thrived in India, among current examples

See Ratan Tata (or any Parsi industrialist)

See Cyrus Broacha (or any social media influencer, commentator or entertainer)

See CJI Fali Nariman or any of the other 4 Parsi CJI's (or any public servant in high office)

See Doc (or any white collar professional who is outnumbered a million to one in his field of expertise)

All of these will have a public life and a very very private life.

@Joe Shearer I'd appreciate your patient reading and thoughts on the piece too. When you have the time.

@indushek @Rivino @Guru Dutt @Jbgt90tankguy @Developereo

Cheers, Doc
you forgot sam bahadur

sam-bahadur-2-scaled.jpg
and freddie mercury

download (2).jpg
 
Dale do link.

Parsis and Iranis. Mobs on the streets. Lathis and swords. Lol

Now you can understand my disgust with our common friend about air pellet shooting dogs.

Cheers, Doc
Airgunning strays was but one of a tedious looooong list of bs what the scumbag way all about. 786 squadron leader ko khabar Hai shaayad uski. But best let it/him remain an unfond memory. Gaya forum, gaya andaaz... And please don't let me take this tread off its rails.

Baaki relevant gupshup whatevering hole pe krte hain.
 
Still. Its not been an easy journey. Without the continued threat of annihilation ... or assimilation.

This is a fascinating piece.

If you want to see how Parsis have survived and thrived in India, among current examples

See Ratan Tata (or any Parsi industrialist)

See Cyrus Broacha (or any social media influencer, commentator or entertainer)

See CJI Fali Nariman or any of the other 4 Parsi CJI's (or any public servant in high office)

See Doc (or any white collar professional who is outnumbered a million to one in his field of expertise)

All of these will have a public life and a very very private life.

@Joe Shearer I'd appreciate your patient reading and thoughts on the piece too. When you have the time.

@indushek @Rivino @Guru Dutt @Jbgt90tankguy @Developereo

Cheers,

There is a very very very fundamental reason behind this.

Parsis do not seek to convert or even allow others to join their religion. Hindus are same, though Hindus tend to keep their religion fairly public. Parsis like to keep it a very private affair. This removes an immediate bone of contention among both. Infact, to be very very honest.... Hinduism does not really have a mechanism to covert into it. You can possibly return to Hinduism but there is no real widely accepted formal way to become a Hindu. Even marrying is not enough.

Actually lived experience of Jews in India is similar too for very similar reason. Jews do not wish others to join Judaism and like to keep their community closed.

Fundamental problem with Islam and Christiniaity is that both seek to convert others. This creates a major political bone of contention with other religions.
What the Arya Samaj does is an abomination. It has a procedure for conversion that is vile, just an adoption and a mish-mash of the actions of other religions.
There is no conversion to Hinduism from other religions.
However Hindus may worship in the ways of other religions without hindrance, if they avoid breach of diet habits and forbidden social practices.
 
I was talking about Parsis living today, in India, under the overhang of dominant Hindutva.

Cheers, Doc
Nonexistent threat, clear horizon, skipper... nary a blip, na radar pe, na sonar pe.

Also, is Vargas a Parsi surname ?
 
What the Arya Samaj does is an abomination. It has a procedure for conversion that is vile, just an adoption and a mish-mash of the actions of other religions.
Arya Samaj is actually modern version of Deen-e-Illahi. Its a weird mish mash of a number of practices going around in India. It has more in common with likes of scientology with a hindu motif than with teachings of Hinduism.
There is no conversion to Hinduism from other religions.
My grandfather used to say: You can not covert out of Hinduism or covert into Hinduism. One has to be born in it. You can stop practicing Hinduism in earnest and even pick up something which is fundamentally against Hinduism. You will still remain Hindu. You can surely restart practicing Hinduism at a later time.
 
What the Arya Samaj does is an abomination. It has a procedure for conversion that is vile, just an adoption and a mish-mash of the actions of other religions.
There is no conversion to Hinduism from other religions.
However Hindus may worship in the ways of other religions without hindrance, if they avoid breach of diet habits and forbidden social practices.

Today my maid told me she's getting late to go to church so she's making me charvelu eedu only for breakfast (scrambled eggs with a dash of pepper). The Mrs starts work at 630 ...

I went with my cold tea to get it reheated , and asked her whether she was Christian or Hindu. Coz we just got her younger daughter married Hindu style (pheras).

She says baba I am Christian, but my husband was (and daughters are) Hindu.

Cheers, Doc
 
Arya Samaj is actually modern version of Deen-e-Illahi. Its a weird mish mash of a number of practices going around in India. It has more in common with likes of scientology with a hindu motif than with teachings of Hinduism.

My grandfather used to say: You can not covert out of Hinduism or covert into Hinduism. One has to be born in it. You can stop practicing Hinduism in earnest and even pick up something which is fundamentally against Hinduism. You will still remain Hindu. You can surely restart practicing Hinduism at a later time.
Arya Samaj is basically the revivalists of very ancient form of sanatan dharm that belived in yagya and vedas only its core belive was life is eternal and there is no idol worship or those karam kaand or sperstitions .... punjab was full of reformists arya samjis and there DAV schools

as for hinduism you are right oldest school of aethism is in sanatan dharm and its alos part of sanatan dharm so is those who worship shakti or shiv or vishnu in any of desired formas all are hindus cause be it shakti oo shiv or vishnu or bhrama they are all menifestion of one prime energy thats beyond time space and energy its eternal athst why its sanatan .... there is no such thing as HINDU RELIGION as cause sanatan dharm cannot be adjusted into abrahmik format of so called religion
 
you forgot sam bahadur

View attachment 2989
and freddie mercury

View attachment 2990
Also Behram Pardiwala and Cyrus Kharas. These are people that we grew up with, Not some strange creatures out of a zoo. There's my sister in Calcutta, refreshing her friendship with a college friend whose husband is a very senior legal officer in the local government. Why stop at Sam Bahadur, and Freddie?

Arya Samaj is actually modern version of Deen-e-Illahi. Its a weird mish mash of a number of practices going around in India. It has more in common with likes of scientology with a hindu motif than with teachings of Hinduism.
Brilliant evaluation. Right on target.
 
There are hundreds. Maybe thousands.

My point was that each successful Parsi is more often than not the only one in his class growing up and through academics and then professionally.

We have no "club" to fall back on. So our interactions with the 2 majority communities, Hindus and Muslims, is a treatise in itself.

Cheers, Doc
 
Arya Samaj is basically the revivalists of very ancient form of sanatan dharm that belived in yagya and vedas only its core belive was life is eternal and there is no idol worship or those karam kaand or sperstitions .... punjab was full of reformists arya samjis and there DAV schools
And that is where they are horribly mistaken, in trying to render Hinduism using a part foreign part invented vocabulary. A Pakistani defence forum thread is not the place to point out the weird aspects of a re-interpretation of Hinduism aping Abrahamic paradigms, but that's what it is.
 
What's wrong with assimilation? Afaik your people are near extinction, yet will not interbreed with ordinary Indians.. that's utterly racist.

A number of things are wrong.

It is against our beliefs.

It is against the beliefs of the land and people we adopted.

It is a promise and a covenant between ancient cousins.

Ultimately, if we assimilate and lose our identity, we might as well have stayed in Persia and become Muslim.

Hope that explains.

Yes, it is absolutely racist. A racism practiced by both ancient faiths. A racism that is as old as the schism between us.

Daevas and Ahuras ... Devas and Asuras.

They call us Mleccha. We call them D'hera (or Parjat in Gujarati).

Cheers, Doc
 
A number if things are wrong.

It is against our beliefs.

It is against the beliefs of the land and people we adopted.

It is a promise and a covenant between ancient cousins.

Ultimately, if we assimilate and lose our identity, we might as well have stayed in Persia and become Muslim.

Hope that explains.

Yes, it is absolutely racist. A racism practiced by both ancient faiths.

They call us Mleccha. We call them D'hera (or Parjat in Gujarati).

Cheers, Doc
I don't know if Doc was being deliberately provocative or just using a very broad brush.

The original mleccha were those who mob longer spoke the correct language.
 
Ultimately, if we assimilate and lose our identity, we might as well have stayed in Persia and become Muslim.

Not necessarily. The initial group of Parsis did marry some Indian women, which makes modern Parsis roughly 22% Gujarati.
You could do that again to boost your numbers.
 
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