POST WAR assessment of recent conflict.

[j_hungary]

That is a very naive statement, no one needs to kill kangaroos or wild camels or whatever other infestation you have in the wild, talk about your military installations.

Do you understand what is area distribution ?

You need to saturate military target which if you have a low-density area, I can put each military installation away from the other, you will need more missile per target to saturate your target, simply because of the fact that you have a bigger area, or are you thinking of we should build all our military installation in a close line at the same area to invite anyone to bomb it.

Also, bigger country means you can build more redundance, I can build back up, back up to the back up, decoy and that would mean you have more target to saturate

So, area DOES matter

 

[j_hungary]

Ukraine surrendered its nuclear weapons because they knew Russia would target their nuclear sites, ultimately forcing them to surrender. No country can risk having its nuclear installations targeted, as it would expose the entire nation to radioactive fallout.

Targeting Pakistan’s nuclear installations is not part of India’s declared policy. However, if Pakistan begins preparing for a nuclear launch, India may be compelled to take this unfortunate but necessary step.

That's not what I was talking about, in fact this is what I said they should avoid because otherwise it will be fixated in the issue, IF we are talking about Nuclear Deterrence, there arent really much we can talk about, other than use it, or not....

 

[suriya]

PM Modi's BIG WARNING to Pakistan

PM Modi: "Roti khao, warna meri 'Goli' toh hai hi."

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[RafaleSlayer]

One word : Akashteer. Punctured many myths. Including so many on display on this thread.

On a serious note, India and pakistan both are well into drone warfare for attacks but good to see air launched cruise missiles being used by India and Pakistan. Why I say it's good, cause India has an upper hand in cruise missiles compared to pak. And the pak/Turkish/Chinese drones were intercepted by Indian air defence.

In the next episode of this drama, there should be a proper drone/ground launched cruise missiles on all the air bases in Pakistan, a proper SEAD/DEAD attack and then fighters fighting it out. I would love to see that. Let's say 50 brahmos/scalp/hammer per airbase. Then a rudram strike on fixed radar sites. Then the fighters rolling in. I will do it that way next time. Insha Allah TRF and Jaise Muhammad will provide us with ample scopes in the future. Insha Allah.

don't you ?

Do you understand what is area distribution ?

You need to saturate military target which if you have a low-density area, I can put each military installation away from the other, you will need more missile per target to saturate your target, simply because of the fact that you have a bigger area, or are you thinking of we should build all our military installation in a close line at the same area to invite anyone to bomb it.

Also, bigger country means you can build more redundance, I can build back up, back up to the back up, decoy and that would mean you have target to saturate

So, area DOES matter

That may be relevant in a 2nd world war type army invasion, not so much in a GPS/Satellite guided missile attack scenario with live feed in high definition imagery from multiple satellites. Not relevant in the electronic warfare age, the farther your installations are the more they need electronic communication which is susceptible to electronic attacks crippling your command and control. You know my drift

 

[RafaleSlayer]

PM Modi's BIG WARNING to Pakistan

PM Modi: "Roti khao, warna meri 'Goli' toh hai hi."

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Accept third party cookies

shows his level and also the level of Indian public. India is such a shit show, and I don't mean the real shitting on the street kind of shit show, which is not a show just everyday life for Indians.

 

[suriya]

Since you are habitually going off the topic to rant about your pennies so let me try and knock some sense back into your skull.
After 1971 war, the IAF has not been able to shoot down a single PAF combat aircraft ..
Now let's see how did PAF repeatedly thrashed IAF in every encounter.
3 IAF aircraft shot down during Kargil conflict
2 During swift retort in 2019
2025 turned out to be crem de la creme where PAF shot down every frontline type in IAF inventory. Now what is the ratio ..I make it 11-0

Pakistani as usual happy with tactical win and strategic failure.

India objective of hitting 9 terror sites in Pakistan was successful. As India saying this is the new normal.
Loss of 2-3 aircrafts means nothing.

Similarly on May10, India struck 11 Pakistani bases.
Sat images are giving proof of it
Pakistan retaliation was pretty luck worm, no evidence of it hit anything substantial.

PS: India is 6 times bigger than Pakistan.
Anybody with common sense would know when 3 feet person mess with 18feet person.

 

[Great Mal]

One word : Akashteer. Punctured many myths. Including so many on display on this thread.

On a serious note, India and pakistan both are well into drone warfare for attacks but good to see air launched cruise missiles being used by India and Pakistan. Why I say it's good, cause India has an upper hand in cruise missiles compared to pak. And the pak/Turkish/Chinese drones were intercepted by Indian air defence.

In the next episode of this drama, there should be a proper drone/ground launched cruise missiles on all the air bases in Pakistan, a proper SEAD/DEAD attack and then fighters fighting it out. I would love to see that. Let's say 50 brahmos/scalp/hammer per airbase. Then a rudram strike on fixed radar sites. Then the fighters rolling in. I will do it that way next time. Insha Allah TRF and Jaise Muhammad will provide us with ample scopes in the future. Insha Allah.

Nice to see Indians are hypothesising, not taking into account that Pakistan hasn’t even used 1 percent of its drone inventory whilst india launched its entire platforms from Harop to warmate.

Pakistan launched the humble Turkish YIHA, a slow moving atgm essentially with a tail fin.

We still have the Chinese LM dragon, the Kamenkes loitering munition, plus countless local ones.

Pakistans response was largely of restraint. We still are yet to see Indians officially owning its downed jets, instead of countering with ‘losses are part of operations’ maybe have the guts to admit.

I suspect once the local political campaign of Modi is over & the votes are gathered we will see everything coming to light

 

[j_hungary]

You seem to be a senior member, so I will refrain from laughing, which would have been my natural reaction to the rant I just read.
Sad really.

When a person assumes everything, and continues to answer his own assumptions, furthermore draws conclusions from those self created assumptions. They literary have nothing of substance to add. Negative value. Which I find extremely sad, from someone who appears to be a senior member.

Another thing, rather then rely on assumed titles, which to be frank I couldn't give a damn about. Try presenting your arguments, and having the courage to stand by them if they have value. Better still have the courage to recognise the other, if he/she is presenting a better argument, especially if it contains context and nuance. Which even a child would know is essential part of any serious discussion.

But what would you know, you've already made up your mind, because you're the lord of truth, our God on this heavenly earth.
It's good this discussion ends here, there was nothing in it in the first place. Just hubris and arrogance.

Please keep your titles shiny, lest they rust from lack of use.

Look, I have had answered a lot more than what you said here, I don't want to engage with you is because I don't see the need to.

Military Science dictate that a larger country and population would have advantage over a smaller country, IF we are talking about indefinite warfare. And in this term, under the United States War College Assumption, that even if you have an allied country, you assume there is a flow thru your country if you have a smaller capability.

SMALL STATES MUST THINK BIGGER ABOUT THEIR DEFENSE

Small nations are often at a military disadvantage. #Maneuverwarfare, #initiative & #deception are key to overcoming the weakness.

warroom.armywarcollege.edu

What does that mean? That mean if there is a war between India and Pakistan, and it's defensive in nature with Pakistani force, Indian would use Pakistan territories as axis of advance, which mean if China, as Pakistan allies, which is going to be the same territories that any Chinese support, if any, would have using the same route to flow thru. That create two major issues.

1.) Pakistan is a small country, with a small defensive depth, any route, center of gravity and city were under siege, those are going to be inaccessible to any Pakistani allies.

2.) There exists a bottleneck effect, even if China can provide more resource than Pakistan needs, it may not be the translate to Pakistan would be able to use or utilities all those resources.

Which naturally, that leads to one conclusion if you have any military science background. The conclusion is, unless Pakistan can withstand and defeat a larger enemy in a shorter period of time, any subsequent time you need is going to go against you, because any contesting area is a no-go, any occupied area is going to be a no go. And you are talking about a peer-to-peer fight, which is going to mean any road junction, MSR, ASR, FRAP, Log Base, are going to be covered by India, now, can you shoot down every missile and every fighter aircraft that intrude into your territories? How about can you even intercept and engage above the line of contact? If not? Then more likely than not, you aren't even going to get air superiority because they can start more fire than you can put out. The issue is not how many fire you can put out, the issue is, how many fire they can start.

And mind you, that's IF China is fighting with you on your side.

Do I assume you understand all this? No. That's why I don't see any point I keep talking to you. You can laugh all you want, but at the end of the day, you can think about things the way you wanted, yes, title mean shit, if you talk a good game, I am more than willing to divulge my point with you, but you ain't that's the issue why I see there are no point keep talking to you.

 

[Great Mal]

Pakistani as usual happy with tactical win and strategic failure.

India objective of hitting 9 terror sites in Pakistan was successful. As India saying this is the new normal.
Loss of 2-3 aircrafts means nothing.

Similarly on May10, India struck 11 Pakistani bases.
Sat images are giving proof of it
Pakistan retaliation was pretty luck worm, no evidence of it hit anything substantial.

PS: India is 6 times bigger than Pakistan.
Anybody with common sense would know when 3 feet person mess with 18feet person.

This fiasco will only help improve our readiness & expand our airbases, yes our airbases were hit but weren’t completely neutralised.

Indians seems like have not played their hand properly & threw whatever they could muster at PK, only to be humiliated by the said 7x smaller nation.

It’s a stalemate, but since India being 18 foot why didn’t you guys victory?

 

[Great Mal]

Look, I have had answered a lot more than what you said here, I don't want to engage with you is because I don't see the need to.

Military Science dictate that a larger country and population would have advantage over a smaller country, IF we are talking about indefinite warfare. And in this term, under the United States War College Assumption, that even if you have an allied country, you assume there is a flow thru your country if you have a smaller capability.

SMALL STATES MUST THINK BIGGER ABOUT THEIR DEFENSE

Small nations are often at a military disadvantage. #Maneuverwarfare, #initiative & #deception are key to overcoming the weakness.

warroom.armywarcollege.edu

What does that mean? That mean if there is a war between India and Pakistan, and it's defensive in nature with Pakistani force, Indian would use Pakistan territories as axis of advance, which mean if China, as Pakistan allies, which is going to be the same territories that any Chinese support, if any, would have using the same route to flow thru. That create two major issues.

1.) Pakistan is a small country, with a small defensive depth, any route, center of gravity and city were under siege, those are going to be inaccessible to any Pakistani allies.

2.) There exists a bottleneck effect, even if China can provide more resource than Pakistan needs, it may not be the translate to Pakistan would be able to use or utilities all those resources.

Which naturally, that leads to one conclusion if you have any military science background. The conclusion is, unless Pakistan can withstand and defeat a larger enemy in a shorter period of time, any subsequent time you need is going to go against you, because any contesting area is a no-go, any occupied area is going to be a no go. And you are talking about a peer-to-peer fight, which is going to mean any road junction, MSR, ASR, FRAP, Log Base, are going to be covered by India, now, can you shoot down every missile and every fighter aircraft that intrude into your territories? How about can you even intercept and engage above the line of contact? If not? Then more likely than not, you aren't even going to get air superiority because they can start more fire than you can put out. The issue is not how much fire you can put out, the issue is, how much fire they can start.

And mind you, that's IF China is fighting with you on your side.

Do I assume you understand all this? No. That's why I don't see any point I keep talking to you. You can laugh all you want, but at the end of the day, you can think about things the way you wanted, yes, title mean shit, if you talk a good game, I am more than willing to divulge my point with you, but you ain't that's the issue why I see there are no point keep talking to you.

Pakistan is small, yes, but it has enough depth to strategically have a skirmish with India on the conventional level.

This current bash with India only helped us value our depth, expect substantial upgrades in all military sectors from airbases to new strips popping up in KPK, Balochistan & Western Punjab.

India isn’t America & Pakistan isn’t Iraq.

 

[Vkdindian1]

Do you understand what is area distribution ?

You need to saturate military target which if you have a low-density area, I can put each military installation away from the other, you will need more missile per target to saturate your target, simply because of the fact that you have a bigger area, or are you thinking of we should build all our military installation in a close line at the same area to invite anyone to bomb it.

Also, bigger country means you can build more redundance, I can build back up, back up to the back up, decoy and that would mean you have target to saturate

So, area DOES matter

Defense in depth has huge advantages. It was proven well even in this skirmish. Many PAF bases with critical infrastructure was successfully and precisely struck by India. What of they were at farther ranges? Weapons for such precise strikes at larger ranges are very few and would also give the adversary more time to react and intercept them.

Most PAF bases are within 100-150 kms from Indian border. This is geographical limitation and Paksiatn can’t do much about it. One way of mitigation is construction of many more of them and distribution of assets all over them, increasing the decision dilemma for an adversary. But that would come with additional cost and may not be the best solution in current Pak economy.

Size of a country is what it is. It can’t be changed radically to create this physical depth.
What are the non-physical means of creating a pseudo depth?
- Robust and layered Air Defence - This was a weak area as shown by multiple strikes at many critical targets in Paksiatn.
- Hardened shelters for all critical elements. E.g. - The mobile command and control centre can’t be parked in open like it was at Nur Khan air base.
- Robust Electronic warfare capability - Pak proved to have done well on that front. India needs to up its game on that front.
- Network centricity - Pakistan has created a robust network and was the main reason for shooting down of IAF aircraft. IAF has to do some radical work on that front.

There must be many other ways to increase the depth by creating asymmetry. A depth that should deter an adversary from attempting a strike.

 

[j_hungary]

There is an issue with nipping in the bud -
That requires that you have rational actors looking at a balanced view of their capabilities and are also not completely reliant on a victory message for maintaining their local support.

If you are facing actors who are so convinced of their victory and have no other message to absorb then either you allow them a victory (which is what world powers were asking of Pakistan) and then lose precedent permanently or you try to balance it out in the hope that every phone line with angry "you need to chill" message from all your aid givers can be told "we did the bare minimum".

It is a rock and a hard place which comes from economic dependency and lack of any actually survivability beyond a few weeks without world intervention.

And while there is joy and jubilation - there was serious danger of the spiral out of control because it wasnt a case of escalation ladder leading to all out mobilization and war. It was escalation ladder being climbed in terms of type of weapon employed.

There was serious issue in terms of what was happening in the desert and it was gamed that while potentially Pakistani forces could pre-empt the massive conventional push being prepared it may end up needing a tactical grade system to slow it down.

That is where the problem was - you did not have rational actors on one side looking to truly understand where their plans of "soft invasion" were to end up while the other side was potentially unable to fund an all out deployment.

The saving grace here is the arrogance of one side which had them bumbling and acting dumbfounded on losses leading to a laughing stock of a propaganda effort that no one believes.

But at the end, they also demonstrated their ability to complete saturate and cause immense damage via just standoff and ground based systems while Pakistan is mostly reliant on air bases systems to truly hit centers of gravity.

You need aggressive political will to go with your aggressive intelligence operation. And most country would need both to stay above the water.

The issue with escalation is that you can try to outdo your opponent just for the sake of outdoing it, the issue is always going to be, to what end?

I am not saying Pakistan don't have the capability to fend off a single strike from India, but the crux to the matter is that, if this is not stopped now, for better or worse, this is going to give the Indian command a lot of imagination.

Those "you need to chill" phone call is probably just one of the issue Pakistan is facing, why lead the engagement deeper with more aggressive stance, as you said, if there exist a rational actor on either side "to be a better man" then this escalation itself probably wouldn't happen to begin with. The fact to the matter is the unstable actor that leads to the result we are seeing now, so at this point, how do we go back on track?

I don't think pleasing is going to work, this would just be an excuse until the next time India do something similar or something more serious, how many "bro, chill" phone call can you take? The rebalancing, IMO have to come from within Pakistani authority, for all that they do, India thought they had altered the status quo, and they are not going to come back down unless Pakistan makes it to. The issue here is what India scare of? In the word of Bull Halsey, if you find your enemy weak spot, you need to hit fast, hit hard and hit often.

 

[super_star2025]

This fiasco will only help improve our readiness & expand our airbases, yes our airbases were hit but weren’t completely neutralised.

Indians seems like have not played their hand properly & threw whatever they could muster at PK, only to be humiliated by the said 7x smaller nation.

It’s a stalemate, but since India being 18 foot why didn’t you guys victory?

Where is the money? That is our plan to push pakistan deeper into debt spiral.
- No water
- No money

 

[wangdefa]

In fact, if India's populism prevails, there will still be calls for war one day. Pakistan needs to increase investment and training in new weapons and equipment, and only by crushing the strength of the other side in an all-round way can it have the initiative.

 

[Reichmarshal]

That was just a small altercation......the conflict/war is yet to come.