PTI freedom movement against Judiciary and Establishment: News, Discussion & Updates

[Oscar]

I disagree with notion of civil complicity. It's a forced shadow rule. You forget the military has guns, unmarked vehicles and masked men to enforce their desires. They can geofence you. They can cancel your character certificate. They can label you anti-national, Yahudi Agent, RAW Agent or worse, a communist.

Politicians are not necessarily warriors and are easy to coerce. Grassroot level student politics has long been obliterated. Us ki jagah ham Model United Nations kartay hay which is Mashallah, just as useless as the real thing.

I do have one very good example of PTI empowering civilian supremacy. That is Sohail Afridi. As far as I've researched, he is no big man's son. He's common cattle and yet he's CM. Just him being made CM is a huge step in the direction that can make this country great.

Of course they have unmarked vehicles, geofencing, and the power to destroy character certificates. That is not the debate. The debate is how they get away with using them. You are confusing coercion with invitation.

Politicians in Pakistan are not just innocent victims being dragged away at gunpoint. They actively knock on the establishment’s door and ask them to deploy those unmarked vehicles against their political rivals. Imran Khan was not forced at gunpoint to accept the rigged system in 2018. He was not crying in a corner when the military was throwing his opponents in jail. He cheered for it. He actively outsourced his political fights to the very military you are now calling a shadow rule. That is the definition of civil complicity. You cannot rent the military’s guns to shoot your enemies and then play the helpless victim of a shadow rule when they finally turn those same guns on you.

Your example of Sohail Afridi actually proves my exact point about how the system works. Yes, it sounds great on paper that a 36 year old from a middle class family in Khyber is now the Chief Minister. But calling this a massive victory for civilian supremacy is just drinking the party kool-aid. Afridi is sitting in that chair, but he is already co-chairing Apex Committees with the military leadership and operating within the exact boundaries the state sets. He is not dismantling the establishment. He is surviving within the load bearing structure they built. That is the reality of power.

You want this to be a clean, simple war between the pure civilians and the evil military.

But if you genuinely want civilian supremacy, you have to stop giving politicians a free pass. Treating politicians like helpless cattle who are just bullied by the big bad army gives them a permanent excuse to keep cutting deals in the dark.

Do not just parrot the cult’s victim narrative. You clearly have the brain to see the flaws in the system, which means you have a responsibility to be the bridge for the people who are still completely brainwashed by it. If your generation just retreats into useless Model UNs or blind leader worship, the cycle will never break. You want to beat the military? Stop treating your leaders like victims and start holding them accountable for inviting the military into the game in the first place. Be the generation that actually forces them to stop compromising.

 

[Cipher212]

Of course they have unmarked vehicles, geofencing, and the power to destroy character certificates. That is not the debate. The debate is how they get away with using them. You are confusing coercion with invitation.

Politicians in Pakistan are not just innocent victims being dragged away at gunpoint. They actively knock on the establishment’s door and ask them to deploy those unmarked vehicles against their political rivals. Imran Khan was not forced at gunpoint to accept the rigged system in 2018. He was not crying in a corner when the military was throwing his opponents in jail. He cheered for it. He actively outsourced his political fights to the very military you are now calling a shadow rule. That is the definition of civil complicity. You cannot rent the military’s guns to shoot your enemies and then play the helpless victim of a shadow rule when they finally turn those same guns on you.

Your example of Sohail Afridi actually proves my exact point about how the system works. Yes, it sounds great on paper that a 36 year old from a middle class family in Khyber is now the Chief Minister. But calling this a massive victory for civilian supremacy is just drinking the party kool-aid. Afridi is sitting in that chair, but he is already co-chairing Apex Committees with the military leadership and operating within the exact boundaries the state sets. He is not dismantling the establishment. He is surviving within the load bearing structure they built. That is the reality of power.

You want this to be a clean, simple war between the pure civilians and the evil military.

But if you genuinely want civilian supremacy, you have to stop giving politicians a free pass. Treating politicians like helpless cattle who are just bullied by the big bad army gives them a permanent excuse to keep cutting deals in the dark.

Do not just parrot the cult’s victim narrative. You clearly have the brain to see the flaws in the system, which means you have a responsibility to be the bridge for the people who are still completely brainwashed by it. If your generation just retreats into useless Model UNs or blind leader worship, the cycle will never break. You want to beat the military? Stop treating your leaders like victims and start holding them accountable for inviting the military into the game in the first place. Be the generation that actually forces them to stop compromising.

Baby steps. If Sohail Afridi starts talking like I am right now on this forum, he'd be branded a drug dealer and TTP commander overnight and swiftly dealt with. Unlike other politicians there will be no strong relatives or friends to come save him.

I also once again cannot apply demand of civilian supremacy to the current crop of politicians:

- Sharifs. Day 1 ISI creation. So shameless that they have been burned multiple times by establishment and still come running back to. They did vote ko izzat do but only until they got back in

- Bhuttos, Day 1 ISI creation. Minor spark in the ones who have been killed long ago. Currently they are like goy cattle and happy as long as they are allowed to graze the land of Sindh. They also square up against the military sometimes but only to preserve their share of the pie

- MQM, totally and utterly irrelevant and engineered by ISI. Was only good at giving people goli wala khat.

- ANP, irrelevant

- Anyone who's Baloch, irrelevant or Sardaars monitored/controlled by ISI

- IK (Not PTI just him), Organic inception when they would win only one seat. Relaunched in 2008-2013 by ISI as spoiler to Sharifs and Bhuttos. Has been burned by establishment once and so far has not held their hand again (and is thus in purgatory lifetime prison)




Nobody from current crop can do anything. Then there is the issue of stamina.

The issue how I perceive it is, even if my generation did by some miracle create a party of honest and competent people, they would be worn down by a 700,000+ efficient fighting force that has access to the countrys entire intelligence apparatus, and loads of money. Boys and girls who go for ISPR internships would be activated to tweet against us. Their pet governments would do ridiculous things like move Basant date to coincide with any rally we try to hold.

Any time the movement gains tractions a few low intensity incidents would occur due to 'lapses' in Intel that bring things to 'Nazuq Morr' wherein we would look like the bad guys for campaigning against the one thing holding the fragile country together. They have the means to repeat this script forever.

 

[flyingorca]

So since PTI cultist keep repeating the same line that Army has no role in politics do let me know why Muslim empires were predominantly ruled by a hybrid systems (religion + monarchy + military)? The champions of Ummah aka PTI cultist should not use Islam in their dirty brainwashing politics if they are not even gonna follow the original form of Muslim rule. This westernized hybrid democratic system that PTI wants to implement is no where near Muslim political system.

 

[flyingorca]

Also, after spending nearly a week debating with PTI cultists I have come to conclusion that their brains has been brainwired to believe anything that comes out of PTI officials as absolute truth regardless how stupid it maybe and to always go against current government narritive regardless how good it maybe for Pakistan. Sort of like P@@jeet mentality against Pakistan. In 1. 2. 3. here comes the PTI victim card.

 

[Cipher212]

So since PTI cultist keep repeating the same line that Army has no role in politics do let me know why Muslim empires were predominantly ruled by a hybrid systems (religion + monarchy + military)? The champions of Ummah aka PTI cultist should not use Islam in their dirty brainwashing politics if they are not even gonna follow the original form of Muslim rule. This westernized hybrid democratic system that PTI wants to implement is no where near Muslim political system.

Gotta be the worst point you've raised so far. We are not a Muslim empire. We are the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, with the white stripe in our flag representing our minoritiies.

Our law is so similar to the UK to the point that you can do LLM from London and come back and practice law in Pakistan with one extra book.

Anyways, in this republic, and it's constution and all that jazz, we have a land force, often known as 'Pak Fauj'. Let me share with you the oath one takes during a ceremony for officers:

"I, ___________, do solemnly swear that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Pakistan and uphold the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan which embodies the will of the people, that I will not engage myself in any political activities whatsoever and that I will honestly and faithfully serve Pakistan in the Pakistan Army as required by and under the law.
May Allah Almighty help and guide me (A'meen).


Okay now let me share with you a real interesting one. Said by the guy who gave us this country in the first place to some PMA officers who kept bothering him.

"Do not forget that the armed forces are the servants of the people. You do not make national policy; it is we, the civilians, who decide these issues and it is your duty to carry out these tasks with which you are entrusted."


If you however feel so passionate about having a military ruled country. Feel free to form the Flying Orca People's Party and once you win majority seats in parliament, you can change the laws how you like it. Good?

 

[pashtunkoum]

1) You want me to paste your thread history then sanctimonious one? You claim that your argument is objective, but your entire response stream is a masterclass in shifting definitions to protect a hollow core. Instead of defending actual geopolitical strategy, you retreat to moral grandstanding and irrelevant tangents.

Going from "He never said Pakistan should stand up to America but there's a balance." for IK, but if someone suggests the same now its "Tumhara kutta kutta, mera kutta tommy" so it’s no longer "balance"; it’s being "ass kissers," "boot polishers," and "slaves" who want to "salute murderers."

This is called Hypocrisy btw but lets not use that to hurt your feelings and call it shifting goalposts
2)And on the 25 year point, you completely ducked the actual argument to try and make it about the dictator's decision instead of that governments make decisions they call pragmatic in the moment, and history can still prove those decisions were disastrous. That was the point. You did not answer it. You just replaced it with a fake version that was easier to attack and get cheerleader likes on. Convenient for the intellectually dishonest. You cannot solve a geopolitical crisis with a gun to your head by giving passionate speeches about true independence.

3) Using one off soundbites to make some point further shows your utter ignorance(willful for cult point scoring) instead of realizing that Saudi Arabia actively dictates global energy markets, recently joined BRICS, and frequently rejects United States demands on oil production but their balancing act(to protect their petrodollar advantage) is now some penultimate example for your "Great Khan Aleh salam" worldview... reminds me of the "Allah ke baad Imran Khan" comment by some drunk PTI bigwig on live television.

Let's apply your own logic. If MBS is an ass-kisser to America, what does that make Imran Khan? Who drove MBS around Islamabad like his personal chauffeur to beg for bailout money? Who went to the White House, smiled for the cameras, and bragged about his great relationship with Trump? Imran Khan.

This is exactly the goalpost shifting I am calling out. When IK bends over backwards for the US, the IMF, or the very Gulf states you are now trashing, your camp calls it "balance" and "diplomacy." But the minute anyone else suggests Pakistan needs a pragmatic, working relationship with the US or Gulf, you start screaming about slavery and boot polishing.


You are ignoring Pakistan's actual economic and geopolitical reality just so you can sound morally superior on the internet. You claim you want to stick to the facts, but your entire defense mechanism is just pasting the word "slave" over any reality that contradicts your narrative.

Without paying attention to the parts you’re just blatantly throwing words like cult (and not responding to my specifics), let me get this straight.

You are of the belief that Saudi Arabia is not an American vassal state but rather quite balanced in their relationship with the US?

 

[alphapak]

He was not crying in a corner when the military was throwing his opponents in jail.

PMLN were thrown in jail for their corruption not because IK did not like them. They still had 5 star prisons and
Mota Nawaja got out of jail to get treatment in London, he never came back.

 

[VCheng]

You make some great points, to which I can respond as below.

But I have to disagree with you on one crucial point. We cannot just “let them be.”
If we completely write them off and abandon them to their echo chamber, we create a societal chasm that can never be closed.

Letting them be does not mean abandoning them, or writing them off. I meant letting them be as in letting them hold on to their delusions, but to keep pointing out realities nonetheless. They have their own echo chambers away from PDF and other similar fora where they can be exposed to reality, so their isolation is of their own making by choice.
The societal chasm that you worry about is more due to economic deprivation and stratification, and not political views such as these. That remains a real and present danger to Pakistan, and the degree of unbridled population growth will only make it worse and worse.

Leaving a massive chunk of the population with a “no way back” stance only leads to one ultimate outcome, and it is a terrifying one.

That outcome can be regarded as terrifying only if the premise of this "massive chunk" of the population hold true. That is often claimed, but there has been no real evidence showing that its reality is more than just a few pockets spread about certain section of society.

So yes, it is exhausting to argue with a wall. But we have to keep hammering the truth.
We cannot abandon people to the brainwashing, because giving up on them means giving up on the country’s cohesion.

The problem here is that one type of brainwashing is not being countered with the truth, but with another, more preferred, type of brainwashing. That is why hammering the truth must include calling out the military's illegal excesses and usurpation of power, while respecting their legal responsibilities and supporting them in all of those as much as possible.

While we must not fall prey to the mantra that the Army is all evil, it does not giving them a carte blanche for illegalities either. As much as I ridicule IK and all of his three PTI tongas' worth of supporters for being ex-puppets of the military, the fact remains that such meddling in power politics is still being carried out by the military, and that must stop.

However, it must stop in a gradual and orderly way, and never by any sudden changes or revolution, if Pakistan is to survive its geopolitical realities as they exist currently.

Reality does win eventually, but the cost of that victory depends entirely on how many people we can drag back to sanity before things snap. We have to keep fighting the narrative right now so the country does not literally have to fight itself later.

I have always had a problem with this tussle of opposing narratives, since, to me, narratives are just a spin on realities from a particular perspective, and nothing more. I would rather just stick to the bitter truth and harsh realities, whatever they may be.

Of course, doing so here on PDF only means that all sides despise you for not totally accepting their particular narratives, so there is that.

 

[Respect4Respect]

“Does the world expect us to be well-behaved victims while we’re being killed?” — Yahya Sinwar

After assassination attempts on IK, after killing and arresting countless political workers, after attacking his home, after targeting his sisters, after the iddat case, after arresting his wife, after Reham Khan's book, after kidnapping his nephew, after threatening his kids, after killing Arshad Sharif, after blinding his eye, after raiding homes and threatening families, after destroying PTI linked politicians businesses, after installing cameras in bedrooms and washrooms, after more than 100 fake cases, after stealing his mandate, after stealing his electoral symbol, after targeting the KPK government, after solitary confinement.....faujis still expect him to be docile like Shehbaz Sharif?

 

[Aggregate]

PMLN were thrown in jail for their corruption not because IK did not like them. They still had 5 star prisons and
Mota Nawaja got out of jail to get treatment in London, he never came back.

You mean the corruption cases where Imran Khan apologized for filing fake narcotics cases on his opponents ? and NS was not allowed to meet his dying wife ?

That's a lot of evidence in support of your usual claims.

Meanwhile you conveniently write off the clear corruption case against IK, where he got sealed documents signed by the parliament to misappropriate 190 million GBP, as fake.

In that case all of you turn into expert lawyers to defend IK. In case of everyone else, people have to trust the Dam fund stealing Judges.

The levels of lies and hypocrisy are astounding.

 

[Olympus81]

Baby steps. If Sohail Afridi starts talking like I am right now on this forum, he'd be branded a drug dealer and TTP commander overnight and swiftly dealt with. Unlike other politicians there will be no strong relatives or friends to come save him.

I also once again cannot apply demand of civilian supremacy to the current crop of politicians:

- Sharifs. Day 1 ISI creation. So shameless that they have been burned multiple times by establishment and still come running back to. They did vote ko izzat do but only until they got back in

- Bhuttos, Day 1 ISI creation. Minor spark in the ones who have been killed long ago. Currently they are like goy cattle and happy as long as they are allowed to graze the land of Sindh. They also square up against the military sometimes but only to preserve their share of the pie

- MQM, totally and utterly irrelevant and engineered by ISI. Was only good at giving people goli wala khat.

- ANP, irrelevant

- Anyone who's Baloch, irrelevant or Sardaars monitored/controlled by ISI

- IK (Not PTI just him), Organic inception when they would win only one seat. Relaunched in 2008-2013 by ISI as spoiler to Sharifs and Bhuttos. Has been burned by establishment once and so far has not held their hand again (and is thus in purgatory lifetime prison)




Nobody from current crop can do anything. Then there is the issue of stamina.

The issue how I perceive it is, even if my generation did by some miracle create a party of honest and competent people, they would be worn down by a 700,000+ efficient fighting force that has access to the countrys entire intelligence apparatus, and loads of money. Boys and girls who go for ISPR internships would be activated to tweet against us. Their pet governments would do ridiculous things like move Basant date to coincide with any rally we try to hold.

Any time the movement gains tractions a few low intensity incidents would occur due to 'lapses' in Intel that bring things to 'Nazuq Morr' wherein we would look like the bad guys for campaigning against the one thing holding the fragile country together. They have the means to repeat this script forever.

That’s a very good summary.

Kudos to you bro!

 

[alphapak]

You mean the corruption cases where Imran Khan apologized for filing fake narcotics cases on his opponents ? and NS was not allowed to meet his dying wife ?

There were many cases on Nawaz before IK came into power, remember in 1999?
who done the military coup? who put mutiny, treason, hijacking and corruption
cases of Nawaja? who put him in prison?

Meanwhile you conveniently write off the clear corruption case against IK, where he got sealed documents signed by the parliament to misappropriate 190 million GBP, as fake.

Why not give him a chance to defend himself? bring him to the courts and live stream
everything on TV.

Every Politician, General, Judge need to bought to justice. They need a free and
fair trial. But it's very less likely to happen in banana republic of Faujistan.

 

[Oscar]

Without paying attention to the parts you’re just blatantly throwing words like cult (and not responding to my specifics), let me get this straight.

You are of the belief that Saudi Arabia is not an American vassal state but rather quite balanced in their relationship with the US?

So we’ll take it you agree with those parts because you have no answer and have only one crutch left to try and get some face saving.. that the same two cult members can like.

Yes. I am absolutely of that belief, because I look at actual geopolitics instead of just quoting Donald Trump rally speeches.
Vassal states do not cut global oil production right before American elections while the US President is actively begging them not to. Vassal states do not join BRICS. Vassal states do not invite the Chinese President for massive state visits and sign strategic tech deals with Beijing. Vassal states do not restore diplomatic ties with Iran using China as the broker while completely bypassing Washington.

Saudi Arabia uses the US for security while playing the rest of the world for its own economic interests. That is called having agency. You thinking they are a complete slave just because Trump made a crude joke about kissing his ass shows how shallow your understanding of foreign policy really is.
But let us play your game. Let us pretend Saudi Arabia is a 100 percent American vassal with zero authority.

If MBS is just an American slave, what does that make Imran Khan?

Because Imran Khan literally acted as the personal chauffeur for MBS when he visited Islamabad. Imran Khan took their bailout money. Imran Khan bent over backwards to keep this “vassal” happy and even skipped the Kuala Lumpur summit just because Saudi Arabia told him to.

So if Saudi Arabia is just a slave to America, your leader was happily playing servant to the slave.

This is exactly what I mean by your cult logic. You try to paint other countries as vassals to make PTI look like brave freedom fighters, but you completely ignore that PTI spent its entire time in power desperately begging those same “vassals” for cash and approval.

You can keep trying to make this a debate about Saudi Arabia to test me, but you are just running away from the fact that your own definitions destroy your own leader’s legacy.

 

[RescueRanger]

Of course they have unmarked vehicles, geofencing, and the power to destroy character certificates. That is not the debate. The debate is how they get away with using them. You are confusing coercion with invitation.

Politicians in Pakistan are not just innocent victims being dragged away at gunpoint. They actively knock on the establishment’s door and ask them to deploy those unmarked vehicles against their political rivals. Imran Khan was not forced at gunpoint to accept the rigged system in 2018. He was not crying in a corner when the military was throwing his opponents in jail. He cheered for it. He actively outsourced his political fights to the very military you are now calling a shadow rule. That is the definition of civil complicity. You cannot rent the military’s guns to shoot your enemies and then play the helpless victim of a shadow rule when they finally turn those same guns on you.

Your example of Sohail Afridi actually proves my exact point about how the system works. Yes, it sounds great on paper that a 36 year old from a middle class family in Khyber is now the Chief Minister. But calling this a massive victory for civilian supremacy is just drinking the party kool-aid. Afridi is sitting in that chair, but he is already co-chairing Apex Committees with the military leadership and operating within the exact boundaries the state sets. He is not dismantling the establishment. He is surviving within the load bearing structure they built. That is the reality of power.

You want this to be a clean, simple war between the pure civilians and the evil military.

But if you genuinely want civilian supremacy, you have to stop giving politicians a free pass. Treating politicians like helpless cattle who are just bullied by the big bad army gives them a permanent excuse to keep cutting deals in the dark.

Do not just parrot the cult’s victim narrative. You clearly have the brain to see the flaws in the system, which means you have a responsibility to be the bridge for the people who are still completely brainwashed by it. If your generation just retreats into useless Model UNs or blind leader worship, the cycle will never break. You want to beat the military? Stop treating your leaders like victims and start holding them accountable for inviting the military into the game in the first place. Be the generation that actually forces them to stop compromising.

Brilliant post, shame it didn't get the traction it so rightly deserves. Level ki baat hoti hain and your commentary flew over many heads in this thread sadly.

 

[Oscar]

Brilliant post, shame it didn't get the traction it so rightly deserves. Level ki baat hoti hain and your commentary flew over many heads in this thread sadly.

Well - I would not be using the term “cult” lightly now would I.

Not too different if you have a debate with Tesla fanboys to explain to them that if you take FSD(also dangerous in its own way) it is a pretty trashy car for its price point and watch them malfunction like folks on this thread with whataboutism.