PTI News, Updates and Discussion

[Taimoor]

Not quite, Taliban rose to power in '94 in the aftermath of the civil war amongst various Mujahideen groups that created complete chaos and anarchy following Soviet withdrawal. They were organic movement started to provide security and protection in the midst of lawlessness with various warlords run amok, but were quickly co-opted by foreign patrons, namely ISI (Benazir's Interior Minister and retd. Gen. Naseerullah Babar claimed them as "his babies") and made rapid advancement soon after finally taking over in 1994. None of it's leadership had any presence, involvement or influence in the mujahideen groups.

There's no connection between mujahideen of 80's and Taliban.

If my memory serve, there was some abduction in Mullah Umar village and he organised his local madrassa students to get the person released. I think that was the first ever act of the Taliban movement.

The "mujahideen", the likes of Hykmatyaar, Rabbani and Masood were busy fighting each other over the power. While Mujahideen were organised to push back communism and had very generous donors all over, Taliban were basically young students of madrassas dotted all over both sides of durand line, and their purpose was to bring order among the chaos, supported by Pakistan, to some extent, Saudi and UAE, the only three countries who originally recognised them.

To mix Mujahideen with Taliban is like trying to fix square peg in a round hole. Complete different era, agenda, personals, and more importantly, the ambitions. While Mujahedeens had pan-Islamic ideology, Taliban remained focused on Afghanistan. Irony is, that Taliban actually fought against the Mujahideen before eventually getting control over Afghanistan.

 

[PakAl]

What Imran Khan did during VONC was "against the law" — but the way his party’s MNAs were made to switch their loyalties in PDM’s favor — was it really in "accordance with the law"? I am not saying what Imran Khan did at that time was right. But that also doesn’t make the conduct of those PTI MNAs who switched loyalties on establishment’s nod any better.

I agree but they do it in a snidy way, buy people behind the scenes and it leaves no evidence. Also don't forget Jahangir Tahreen and Aleem Khan, two millionaires/billionaires and influential people left PTI and these guys convinced many to join PTI, so they also convinced many to leave Pti at the right time, Mqm, Anp and Pmlq till today are part of their old pals PDM so it was obvious they would change sides.

As for my self and according to the Pakistani constitution, any money launderers, criminals, mafias, dacoits are not allowed to be part of the Parliament which is known as Majlis Shura, and if Parliament is full of dacoits this means it is illegitimate according to the Pakistani law and constitution. But where can we find Sadiq and Amin people.

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not trying to be anti IK or anything, just wanted to share the events which lead to his removal. Nawaz Sharif himself was removed 3x, exiled for 10 years, Benazir was removed once, she was also assassinated, her father was hanged, the list continues on the bad events of Pakistan. Its unfortunate.

 

[PakAl]

You asked for 'what is democracy'?
Short answer: 'Rule by the people'
Long answer: Read the Wikipedia link I provided above as it summarizes the many different types of democracies in the world.
And if you wanna know what kind of "democracy" Pakistan is, it’s also provided in that link:

Guided democracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No real democracy exists around the world, it's all a sham. In the western world the powerful elite use education, brainwashing, high level propaganda to control people minds. In the developing nations due to incompetence they make big blunders and then end up using direct force to correct it to this liking.

 

[PakAl]

Now we're getting somewhere

Without education, all you are doing is enabling a manipulated electorate for the establishment(feudal/business elite/military/bureaucracy/fat clergy).
IK was an outlier to this in ways but he too had to have this facade manipulated - which is why the term "selected" was not wrong for him even if he does have genuine mass support - the original mass was not enough to get him into office.

When he was finally ousted by this same facade of a system, he objects and refuses to leave - and so the system decides to remove him from the chessboard but because that system in itself is led by incompetence - cannot really make that happen either.

It is a comedy of idiots all around.

All developing or under developed nations are in the same boat, corruption, money laundering, fake democracy, manipulations, buying MNAs etc. I was speaking to a few Nigerians and they were too saying Nigeria is full of corrupt and incompetence rulers otherwise they would be a powerful nation. The western world is highly educated and developed, they change PMs and MNA every 5 odd years and the next one are still competent at a high level. For Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia their education level is amazing.

 

[Forsvaret]

In the western world the powerful elite use education, brainwashing, high level propaganda to control people minds.

Not ALL western countries are the same. There is a high disparity among them when it comes to democratic norms, customs and practices. I will put Switzerland at the first place because their democracy is directly influenced by the voters—who get to vote multiple times a year on bills that get at least 100,000 signatures. This way, the people of Switzerland continuously keep their lawmakers and government in check on how they want their democracy to move forward:

What are Switzerland’s direct democratic tools?​

Switzerland has various types of votes with the popular initiative being the most well-known.

The popular initiative or people’s initiative gives Swiss citizens the opportunity to propose changes to the Constitution. They can initiate a vote by collecting and verifying at least 100,000 signatures from eligible voters within 18 months.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-democracy/how-swiss-direct-democracy-works/89073820

 

[SaadH]

@Mighty_Dragon_Strike has actually explained the limitations of your definition of "democracy" very astutely.

No such animal as "democracy" even exists, nor can it exist. Whatever you see in western countries is in fact somewhere along the spectrum of oligocracy or plutocracy (rule by elite and controlling classes). In the Muslim world, western nations are happy to push the same types of government with even more restrictions or even mob rule (ochlocracy) in order to sustain external influence. Look at Iraq, Syria etc where western influence has not brought "democracy" but rather rule by the strongest and most compliant mafia available.

But the explanation of why "democracy in Pakistan" is a fundamentally flawed aspiration (and is in fact, one that is pushed by malevolent western nations who themselves know full well they will never practice what they preach ) does not end there. There is more to be said yet.

A reasonable "democratic choice" of leadership can only be made when the following conditions are satisfied:
1. Absolute and free access to all information that is required to enable said choice.
2. An electorate that has the prerequisite education level and capacity to make an informed choice.

There's more.

Even then, fulfilling all the above theoretical criteria (which cannot possibly be attained btw), the reasonable choice is still dependent on the absence of biasing factors (e.g. sycophantism, foreign interference).

Democracy never once existed in pure form in any society in the world. Even the ancient Greeks knew this. The cult of democracy is pushed on lesser nations like Pakistan in order to exploit them via either a ruling elite, an incorrigible mob, or an idolised individual. All are equally corruptible. There is a very good reason that India and Afghanistan bark loudest for Mr Khan to return to power.

Pakistan needs to do what is best for Pakistan. I do not pretend to know what that is. However, many of us now know what that isn't.

Judiciary no matter how empowered cannot do jack $hit without the blessings of the 700K armed jamedars...Bajwa intervened time and again and let crooks off the hook every time IK went after them during his tenure...According to Bajwa corruption wasn't a problem.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@Meengla sb

because Indians are on Imran's online bandwagon in a big way.

Strange. When IK was PM, his followers used to accuse us Indians of being Patwaris because IK was giving a thrashing to Indians on Kashmir in global forums.

Regards

 

[General Hannibal]

Ethno nationalism wasn’t an issue. India has it too, as well as other countries in the region. But none of them relied on their military to keep the country together. Instead, they let their people decide that through the power of their vote—something the military establishment simply doesn’t allow here in Pakistan.

LoL.india has ethno nationalism. India didn’t lose any territory cos it is single territory.not like Pakistan at that time in 1947-71.two Pakistan and vast india in it's middle.since 1971,no other ethnicity in Pakistan able to secede cos of single territory of Pakistan.and u were forgetting that,Pakistan allowed free elections in 1970 when awami league won the election.remember they’re slogan was that famous 6 point of sheikh mujib which basically meant east Pakistan becoming independent.that's why Pakistan didn’t give him power.well they miscalculated their military power and india factor.that's why they lost the war.remember, there was a full uprising in Balochistan in 1968.and pak army crushed that.even in 48 there was a uprising against Pakistan in balochistan. and again in 1972-75.and all of them were crushed by military.so, it is the military that is keeping this country together.

 

[Forsvaret]

Pakistan allowed free elections in 1970 when awami league won the election.remember they’re slogan was that famous 6 point of sheikh mujib which basically meant east Pakistan becoming independent.that's why Pakistan didn’t give him power.

Huh? Pakistanis gave him that power through their vote. Remember, Sheikh Mujeeb had actually won that election unlike Bhutto:

Who gave military establishment the right to violate Pakistanis sanctity of vote then? And it didn’t just stop there. In each and every election since then and onwards, whoever Pakistanis voted for never resulted in the rightful transfer of power.

 

[Respect4Respect]

Pakistan allowed free elections in 1970 when awami league won the election.remember they’re slogan was that famous 6 point of sheikh mujib which basically meant east Pakistan becoming independent.that's why Pakistan didn’t give him power.

So friend, "Pakistan’" allowed fair elections and then "Pakistan" refused to hand over power? Who exactly is this "Pakistan"? The people who voted or the unelected general sitting in GHQ acting like aql e qul?

Bengalis weren’t demanding secession at first, they just wanted autonomy within a federal framework. The refusal to transfer power wasn’t about stopping independence, It was about preserving West Pakistan’s dominance and denying East Pakistan its democratic mandate.

what did that stubbornness achieve? The country split anyway. So maybe the real threat wasn’t Mujib’s mandate it was the fear of losing control?

 

[Forsvaret]

So friend, "Pakistan’" allowed fair elections and then "Pakistan" refused to hand over power? Who exactly is this "Pakistan"?

This of course:

 

[Forsvaret]

what did that stubbornness achieve? The country split anyway. So maybe the real threat wasn’t Mujib’s mandate it was the fear of losing control?

Cannot be said better!

 

[Respect4Respect]

Cannot be said better!

For the generals, control is everything. That’s why they don't like or support police reforms, empowered police force might become too independent, too competent and too inconvenient for their grip on power.

 

[Master Chief]

Judiciary no matter how empowered cannot do jack $hit without the blessings of the 700K armed jamedars...Bajwa intervened time and again and let crooks off the hook every time IK went after them during his tenure...According to Bajwa corruption wasn't a problem.

So the judiciary itself somehow isn't already corrupted by the exact same standards that other state apparatus are held to?

You and I both know deep down that nobody with any semblance of status or infleunce in this country needs any encouragement whatsoever to indulge in asset securing activities.

It is an oversimplification and a thoroughly lazy analysis to just keep blaming "the army" for Pakistan's woes.

 

[Meengla]

India didn’t lose any territory cos it is single territory.not like Pakistan at that time in 1947-71.two Pakistan and vast india in it's middle.since 1971,no other ethnicity in Pakistan able to secede cos of single territory of Pakistan.and u were forgetting that,Pakistan allowed free elections in 1970 when awami league won the election.remember they’re slogan was that famous 6 point of sheikh mujib which basically meant east Pakistan becoming independent.

You are speaking too much facts to the Imran fanbois who, parroting their Dear Leader, often bring up the loss of East Pakistan as a veiled threat to make the K-P province secede from Pakistan.
They and their Dear Leader are pathetic opportunists and frankly anti-Pakistan. Anything to regain power! Even if that means, Imran's sons publicly pinning their 'main hope' on America after Imran built his support base by accusing America for his ouster.
What a bunch of hypocrites and liars!