Hopefully Pessimistic
Registered Member
Thankfully I've not caught the youthiya virus you are suffering from
PTI news, updates and discussions part ll
- Thread starter Fatman17
- Start date
Thankfully I've not caught the youthiya virus you are suffering from
Hopefully Pessimistic
Registered Member
Sad
hasssanali8998
Elite Member
id add further , any post connected to nukes or above a certain high clearence should mean you are never leaving pakistan ( unless work related / trips )including your children
and this should be made clear when they are choosen
still i would prefer having single leader during entire war , he can leave after
meh dont think thats such a big deal in a normal country .
but yeah agree with the rest , though i fear this is just fan fiction lmao but hey a man can dream
Respect4Respect
Trusted Member
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Goenitz
Elite Member
Oscar
Moderator
If you cannot debate normally without repeating the same foulmouthed upbringings cassette - you DONT BELONG ON THIS FORUM.
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Oscar
Moderator
So basically you dont have an answer and are back to whataboutism. Typical cult response.
VCheng
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Oscar
Moderator
You went ahead and did EXACTLY what my post predicted:
My post - which you supposedly read and quote said explicitly, in plain text "condemn persecution, oppose selective justice, demand due process for PTI supporters" Go read it - its right there if you dare to oppose that existence of that text... but why would a cultist see what he doesn't want to because also in that post says "cultists "cannot handle nuance" and that "every setback is a conspiracy, every critic is a sellout."
That is a cult brain refusing to read what it does not want to see, exactly as predicted.
I dare you to read all of this before smacking at the keyboard...
Framing any critic of PTI as someone who must be defending the dictator. There is no third option in this person's worldview. You are either pro PTI or pro establishment. That binary, all or nothing framing is the cult operating system.
"Digital terrorism is one of the cringiest terms I've heard..."
This is pure deflection and an easy one at that because at no point in my post was reference to or defense of the term "digital terrorism" or DG ISPR. But you need to reference his ghost because in your mind and this what the my post called "every critic is a sellout" because if you criticize PTI, you must be defending the army, so the rebuttal targets the army's excesses instead of addressing PTI's.
Typical brainwashed "I only this answer" whataboutism or as I put earlier: "The talking points never evolve." You opened with a talking point about DG ISPR in response to a post that never mentioned him once because that is the pretrained bot response.
"I don't know why you people like to skip the movie and jump straight to the climax..."
AND THERE IT IS AS IF BY AUTOMATIC CUE - "You people." - Haye, alone against the wall are we??
I put in that post in the clearest words "WE ARE THE CHOSEN ONES AND EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG" mentality and you JUST DID EXACTLY THAT - Zionist much?
Oh, but now that will be compared to those that call IK zionists and now its a Patwari enemy chatbot answer or Fauji worshipper chatbot answer - the chatbots are toggling away what to find, how to frame through ChatGPT the rebuttal. Even AI gets confused when you keep asking it to somehow fit a square peg in a round hole.
Your brain has already sorted the world into PTI faithful and enemies, and anything coming from the "enemy" is presumptively bad faith and incompetent. Your reply then lists every legitimate grievance in press conferences raided, businesses destroyed, mandate stolen as if reciting them constitutes a rebuttal to the cult argument WHILE IN MY ORIGINAL POST IT SAYS CLEARLY (Go look at it and if you can prove it doesn't say it I WILL LEAVE THIS FORUM PERMANENTLY TODAY) "Persecution is real in Pakistan with PTI and well before them."
Already conceded.
Already in the post.
But, in our imaginary fight we want to still give a rebuttal to what is already conceded because Zinda hai Bhutto ZInda hai... Oh sorry, wrong cult.
"Governments have the authority to build institutions, political parties that are not in power cannot..."
Now comes the ultimate "We are wronged throughout history" and then is HYPOCRISY to the earlier claim of "I don't know why you people like to skip the movie".
Lets not skip the movie then.
PTI governed KP for over ten years. Right? Or is that not part of this movie or are we being zionists in selective memories on the movie?
PTI governed KP for over a decade. Full power. Full political freedom. No crackdown. In the 2021 local body elections which were held under PTI's own provincial government. PTI could not consistently dominate even its own stronghold at the local tier, the exact level of politics where grassroots organizational machinery matters most.
PTI lost phase one badly and partially recovered in phase two. That inconsistency is shows that a party with deep institutional roots does not lose phase one and scramble back in phase two.
It wins both because it has structures at every level and not because individual candidates carry constituencies on personal connections alone. After ten years of provincial rule, PTI could not build that.
I am asking you directly and on record: what specific fauji interference caused that organizational unevenness in PTI's own province under PTI's own government?
Name it. Because if you cannot name it, you have just confirmed the hollowness was PTI's own product, built under PTI's own watch, with no one else in the room.
In 2013 Imran Khan personally appointed Justice Wajihuddin to investigate internal party election irregularities - right? .
He found problems. Imran suspended him.
Now before you argue Wajihuddin should have exhausted internal remedies before going public please ask yourself what that internal remedy looks like when the chairman himself is the subject of the irregularities being investigated.
If the only channel for reporting problems with IK's party runs through IK, the "use internal channels" argument is structurally rigged from the start. PTI had no independent ombudsman, no internal audit committee with authority above the chairman, no accountability mechanism that did not terminate at the man himself. That structural absence is not a crackdown consequence. It was built that way years before any crackdown existed.
The man IK himself appointed to find the truth was punished for reporting it.
No army was in that room. That was IK's decision, about IK's appointee, regarding IK's party's own internal elections. What external interference explains that?
Lets go to 2014 - Akbar Babar a PTI founding member, not a Patwari, not an establishment plant, a man who built the party filed a case alleging PTI knowingly concealed accounts and submitted a false affidavit signed by Imran Khan. PTI supporters argue that this was procedural non disclosure rather than personal theft but when you claim zero tolerance for financial opacity of any kind and talk to bringing stolen wealth back and then IK personally signs and submits as accurate while concealing over 350 foreign company sources it is not just procedural.
This was 2014. There was no fight with the establishment yet. The establishment was not against IK at this point. So the founding member complaint cannot be blamed on the army without you admitting PTI's relationship with the establishment was collaborative enough in 2014 that any complaint was genuinely independent.
In 2016 - PTI's own internal Election Commissioner, the man whose entire function was to ensure PTI's intraparty elections were free and fair resigned because those elections were not free and fair. Not the army's election commissioner. PTI's own. The man responsible for the party's internal democratic integrity walked out because that integrity did not exist. No crackdown explains that. No jailed leader explains that. That is PTI eating its own accountability infrastructure from the inside.
Then there is the Gulalai episode - Yes, I don't trust the woman but the way PTI responded is the same when asked for accountability - zero internal investigation announced at any stage. Because Imran Khan doesn't actually care for actual accountability - he cares for sloganeering until it comes down to him because he wants loyalty as his principle(going back to his cricket days) and not an actual structure.
Not to mention the whole BRT project where back in 2018 - WHILE THE ESTABLISHMENT WAS RUNNING WITH PROJECT IK - has a NAB probe with your sitting MPAs calling it a hellhole of corruption.
Every Pakistani party loses senior leaders.
The question is who leaves and why.
These were not defectors chasing better electoral prospects. They were the people whose job was accountability. PTI systematically expelled its own accountability infrastructure while retaining its loyalty infrastructure. That is the cult operating system, and it was running years before the establishment became the enemy.
So, now - your brain goes and asks AI - what did PTI do against corruption.. NAB cases..
PTI did pursue corruption cases... except it was all against the opposition.
Wasnt it Fawad Chu who said "it is PTI, not NAB, who is in control of this accountability drive." -
That is not a political opponent saying PTI weaponized accountability(Or do you want to disown that too?)
Using accountability as a weapon against opponents while protecting your own is precisely what PTI accused every previous government of doing. PTI did not end selective accountability. PTI ran it under new management.
Then there is the AL Qadir conviction - yes, IK DID NOT PROFIT OFF IT. But it was a secret transaction involving public money. Something PTI spent years accusing Patwaris and Zardaris of doing (Until 2022 IK was keeping on the side voices calling out this behavior in the military who do it soo soo much more).
And you know WHAT YOUR CULT BRAIN WILL DO ? IT will say "what about the army?!!"
What about Patwaris?"
So now I dare you. On record. Three times because you might skip the first two in your cult brain...
The LEVEL OF CORRUPTION AND DAMAGE DONE BY THE ARMY TO THE FUNCTIONING OF PAKISTAN AS A STATE IS FAR BEYOND IMAGINATION INCLDUING THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM AND THEY ARE TERMITES TO THE STATE.
The LEVEL OF CORRUPTION AND DAMAGE DONE BY THE ARMY TO THE FUNCTIONING OF PAKISTAN AS A STATE IS FAR BEYOND IMAGINATION INCLDUING THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM AND THEY ARE TERMITES TO THE STATE.
The LEVEL OF CORRUPTION AND DAMAGE DONE BY THE ARMY TO THE FUNCTIONING OF PAKISTAN AS A STATE IS FAR BEYOND IMAGINATION INCLDUING THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM AND THEY ARE TERMITES TO THE STATE.
THE LEVEL OF CORRUPTION DONE BY PML(N) WOULD MAKE NIGERIA BLUSH.
THE LEVEL OF CORRUPTION DONE BY ZARDARI CLAN WOULD MAKE IBLEES FEEL LIKE HE HAS NATURAL HEIRS.
Said it. On record. Unambiguously. Now you do the same about IK and PTI. Not about the army. Not about Nawaz. About IK. About the foreign funding affidavit he personally signed. About the BRT where PTI's own MPAs called it a corruption hellhole while the project was running. About Justice Wajihuddin being suspended for doing the job IK gave him.
"How do you know any leader who comes after IK won't also be jailed or assassinated?"
Lol logic - so basically, when I asked "What exactly survives if the man is removed from the picture? The ideas, the organization, or just the rage?" your best reply is confirming in writing that nothing structural exists beyond Imran Khan, and offering an external excuse for why that is acceptable.
Mandela was jailed for 27 years. Bhutto was executed. The ANC built structures, symbols, a liberation tradition, and a post-Mandela identity that governed South Africa for decades.
So your answer to "what survives Imran?" is "nothing and here is who to blame." Typical Victimhood with zero responsibility.
"PTI has already defeated its political opponents in the 2024 elections. PPP and Noon League barely exist on the ground anymore."
The irony in this to the subject in my original post is only palpable to moderate sane individuals - not cultists because this exact subject is the typical call center script reply. No one is arguing against that Imran Khan had the mandate in that election and the military did everything possible to suppress it.
Let me post it again due to the cult brain issue:
No one is arguing against that Imran Khan had the mandate in that election and the military did everything possible to suppress it.
But, since my post was on cultism - you just described the textbook definition of a personality cult winning an election, and presented it as evidence against the personality cult argument. That takes a specific kind of cognitive architecture (cultist. cough cough) to achieve.
"The only rival PTI is fighting now is a proper army pretending to be a political party — one that has weapons and paid thugs."
So when I said "If your answer to state abuse is 'our side should get its own thugs too,' then you are not defending democracy, you are admitting you worship power, just under a different logo." - You agree after going on a hypocritical tangent about defending democratic politics, the conclusion frames the conflict in pure power terms in that army has guns and PTI needs to fight that with guns - You went on a full circular tour of democratic language and landed on the same destination the post told you that you would land on.
The army's destruction of Pakistani democracy is real. PML-N and PPP's corruption is real. All three statements on army termites, Sharif kleptocracy, Zardari inheritance were just stated above without hesitation.
Before you reach for the "every party is the same" defense yes there is an elitist, colonial legacy in Pakistan's system that does not allow democracy to florish that began with Iskandar Mirza - with the swine Ayub and cemented by Zai-ul-Haq.
We ALREADY KNOW PML-N is a family business. PPP is a dynastic inheritance(although it seems PTI wants to do that now).
BUT PPP never claimed Bhuttoism was not a personality cult- THEY LEAN WHOLE HEARTEDLY INTO IT!
PTI specifically, repeatedly, and loudly promised to be categorically different for twenty-five years. You do not get to make that promise at every jalsa and then invoke "everyone else is the same" when you fail to keep it. The standard came from PTI's own mouth. The measurement is against PTI's own stated terms. That is not a double standard. That is holding someone to their word.
Every argument above is sourced from PTI's own people. PTI's own founding member. PTI's own appointed investigator. PTI's own election commissioner. PTI's own minister's public admission. PTI's own court record. There is no PML-N source in that chain. There is no army press release in that chain. It is PTI measuring PTI against PTI's own promises and being found short based on documentation from the inside, years before the establishment became the villain in the story.
The army's institutional destruction of Pakistan is real. The Sharif and Zardari looting is real. Both stated above without hesitation or qualification.
The question was never whether you could criticize the army. If you can put hand on the Quran - and say I have never done it and then I run a search on this forum to prove you wrong what will you do?
The question was whether you could criticize IK with the same energy.
You are cultist who has picked up criticism of the military because it wronged your party -
Back in 2011-12 I was critiquing the military's involvement in real estate deals on the old platform against Xeric and Agnostic Muslim stepped in to do every possible dance and whataboutism to deflect that argument.
Because he became a PTI supporter then - Agnostic Muslim then went on typical tirades against the military and flipped.
I still call the faujis a property dealing/business mafia who hide their mediocrity through forceful control of the country.
Can you call your leader a egomaniacal hypocrite?
My argument was always you are a cult - not what happened to people tortured, persecuted, systemic problems within Pakistan for which all of the people I quoted earlier are responsible... but that another cult is not the solution to those problems and it will NEVER succeed in fighting a mafia and other cults who HAVE MUCH MORE EXPERIENCE THAN YOU LOT EVERY WILL at their game.
You are no different that the GHQ villains who claim to hate - because partly because the movement is built by Pakistanis - and the military has Pakistanis - but also because the movement also echoed with the same fauji mindset that now takes the PTI as the enemy.
LC150
Registered Member
and you have no answer to any thing.
the fact remain the Pakistan military has screwed Pakistan beyond all recognition...
PS congrats on your new IMF loan.... at least you are good at that... ie getting loans..
LC150
Registered Member
Respect4Respect
Trusted Member
First of all you need to calm your tone down because i am not Abhinandan. I’m just another Pakistani who happens to have different views from you so please don’t view me as your enemy.
Your post did not predict anything, you just repeated the same rhetoric that you, me and all of us have been repeating for the last few years. That’s why i focused on other points and ignored what i considered "cult" rhetoric.
You need to read my earlier comments again, i did not say anywhere that you specifically are defending dictators. You might argue that “you people” was a personal attack on you but that was unintentional because, in the back of my mind, i actually consider you in the “neutral” category. My comments are mostly directed toward supporters of dictatorship so you got caught in the mix.
Why would there be any need for me to deflect when i chose which points i wanted to reply to? It’s not like i lose marks if i don’t respond to you word for word. “Digital terrorism” is one of the cringiest terms i’ve ever heard come out of his big mouth. That’s my opinion. You don’t agree? No problem.
PTI is not some magical party that can be perfect all the time. It’s just another Pakistani political party and we can judge them by those same standards. If they lost KPK by elections then that was their fault and they paid the political price for it. But that also showed that PTI is not all about IK alone because people didn’t blindly vote for him. PTI also won consecutively in KPK which shows people liked what they delivered. That’s just how politics works, sometimes you win sometimes you lose.
I’m not going to say much about the cases you are referring to because i was in school at that time and wasn't following political developments closely. It would be stupid of me to respond without proper knowledge of those cases. At the end of the day PTI is part of the Pakistani political system...and no political party is ever going to get 10/10 marks, no matter how hard they try.
As far as BRT or any other corruption cases go, who is saying PTI should be exempt? They should be punished twice as hard if corruption is proven because their entire movement was built around eliminating corruption. Nobody would have any objection if PTI leaders were jailed for proven corruption.
Instead they created more than 200 fake cases against IK alone, came up with the iddat case and even jailed his wife in an attempt to break him so he would cut a deal like Nawaz Sharif and leave the country.
You already know my views about the establishment and their cronies, so there’s no need for me to say much more.
Why would i refuse to condemn corruption? anyone from PTI, Fauj, PML N or PPP should be equally punished if corruption is proven...no ifs, no buts.
Every time i say Pakistan must stop giving freebies to the elite class like free cars, rent, electricity, fue and servants, that also includes PTI governments because they are part of the same system too...and yes IMO these freebies are a form of corruption just like lobbying in the USA.
Any group or party can be called a cult, it’s just a label that people can stick anywhere. PTI’s sincere leadership is in jail and that’s why clowns are playing musical chairs in IK’s name outside. In reality many of these same clowns would be in jail too if they were as sincere as people like Yasmin Rashid, Umar Cheema, SMQ and others.
Last point, PTI doesn’t have many options when the other side has guns and absolute control over the system. The only options are that IK either cuts a deal and leaves the country or sticks to his principles and dies a hero. That wouldn’t be the first or the last time in Pakistan’s political history.
But as we all believe, Allah S.W.T. is the best of planners, so anything can happen that we may not even expect.
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muz
Registered Member
One of the SM handles that i followed for a while posted this a while back
He could not stand selling his dignity and soul for keema(not even original beef) ki naan
he passed away a few days back
May Allah bless his soul and even if there is a next life not have him born as a Normal Citizen Pakistan
Goodbye
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