Reforming Command Without Weakening It - Part 1 - A Pragmatic Approach for Systemic reform in Pakistan starting with the Army

[Oscar]

I dont agree with this..

this is very abstract and over looks key details

1. geo-political shifting of interests
2. weak resilience of local population against inflation
3. weak local currency
4. almost absent efficient use of civil service
5. disloyal civil servicemen and women
6. disloyal judges and corrupt politicians
7. synthetic business ideas, holding whole economy hostage to imports from China, Malaysia and Japan
8. weak border control

list goes on and on



It is easer to destroy this country from within then outside

would hardly take 2 0r 3 million dollar investment to buy services of the people described above

this country is rotting from the inside

Im sure you, knew all of it, still you wrote that!


seems people who have the control of this country think, country exist within the boundaries of cantonment (lack of vision and more than that lack of capability!)


I would write a strong rebuttal to this..

the most problematic thing about this piece is, that it ignoes, participants in this economy who are vying for control, they are seeking more than monetary rewards!

thats not only criminal, it shapes morale and structure of the whole society

for instance, if I am a developer, I'd look to buy a politician to allot me a gov. owned land for free.

If i am businessman, I would buy a civial servant to allow me imports without tax!

This is all whataboutism at its core - and intentionally ignores this being addressed in later parts of this write up as well. Nobody serious denies geopolitical pressure, inflation, a weak currency, a hollow civil service, compromised judges, patronage politics, import-dependent “business,” or porous borders.

Just plainly repeating ad nauseum that the "country is rotting" isnt some disagreement or even an indicator you can provide a rebuttal. Just a whiny disagreement that seems like you did not even read the article.

A state that cheap to capture needs harder to corrupt professional habits, clearer roles, better internal challenge before decisions lock in, and civilian institutions that stop outsourcing competence. Just because you cant find your 10 second instant gratification into it doesn't mean its abstract.

You offer no answer except moral disgust and the claim that people “in control” only see the cantonment. Fine.
Rage at myopia.
Rage at elite insulation.
Rage at synthetic businesses living off Chinese, Malaysian, and Japanese imports.

None of that substitutes for a plan(which you supposedly have I assume??) that reduces permanent military dependence without creating a vacuum.

The article asked that question on purpose and your own abstract reply just went in half glancing with the typical aimless anger instead of seeing that I provided a potential framework to bake in professionalism that will act against those pitfalls.

Everyone can list their symptoms and congratulations on being the 200 millionth Pakistani who is angry at symptoms. But have zero courage to try and provide a roadmap other than cynicism and moral high horse talk of "all is lost".

If you actually can provide a so called strong rebuttal or even some poem...
SHOW:
Structured dissent teams are incompatible with Pakistan's environment or promotion politics
What trials at NDU cannot be implemented wide in the military
Civil military roles clarity is blocked by active coalition interests permanently
Provincial and party reform cannot be fixed through the army

All you have done is
List failures EVERYBODY including an illiterate donkey cart driver knows
List corruption that the Donkey driver also knows intimately
Provide high horse cynicism and sarcasm.
End with "Establishment is never fixable"

Not sure in what world that is called a rebuttal or just plain ego soothing feel good.

 

[nahtanbob]

Agree with this.


Disagree with this. It is not the Army's business to get involved in civilian functions even if they are doing a terrible job, just as it is not the business of the civilian government to micromanage the affairs of the army beyond appointing the apex leadership.


This is the crux of the problem. It is not for the military but the people of Pakistan to decide what kind of government they want. The military, by arrogating the authority of certifying which civilans are strong, competent and accountable enough to be in government, has effected a permanent coup against its own people.

It is instructive to look at how things evolved in India and Bangladesh, which inherited the same governance systems and faced many crises that the respective militaries could have used as excuses to take over, but where civilian supremacy ultimately prevailed. Today , the military is relatively weaker compared to other institutions in both countries, but their citizens , on the whole, enjoy greater democratic rights and higher standards of living than those in Pakistan.

Unless the Pakistan military is made to give up the the state within the state it has created for itself and goes back to exclusively military duties like their counterparts in functioning states, the situation will continue to worsen.

Budgetary allocations for military and foreign policy are the weak links here. In theory they are civilian matters. As a practical matter it is a different story

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

If you actually can provide a so called strong rebuttal or even some poem...
SHOW:
Structured dissent teams are incompatible with Pakistan's environment or promotion politics
What trials at NDU cannot be implemented wide in the military
Civil military roles clarity is blocked by active coalition interests permanently
Provincial and party reform cannot be fixed through the army

All you have done is
List failures EVERYBODY including an illiterate donkey cart driver knows
List corruption that the Donkey driver also knows intimately
Provide high horse cynicism and sarcasm.
End with "Establishment is never fixable"

Not sure in what world that is called a rebuttal or just plain ego soothing feel good.

this is exactly the problem!

your thinking is set in the past, as if, fixing problems which have already happened will do any good

my argument is quite the contrary, can we ever exist in the future?!

thats why im asking

 

[Oscar]

this is exactly the problem!

your thinking is set in the past, as if, fixing problems which have already happened will do any good

my argument is quite the contrary, can we ever exist in the future?!

thats why im asking

You are not asking - you are taking an escape.

Reform is not antique restoration. It is future capacity.​

Mission command, protected dissent, after action learning, clearer roles, stronger civilian delivery are all ways to take existing issues and improve them. Those who dont learn from history are doomed to repeat it and then cry about it as if there is no future.

As an example aviation does not ignore the last crash because the wreckage is in the past. It rebuilds procedures so the next aircraft stays up.

You asking "Can we ever exist" is a cop out - Pakistan has cleared that bar through worse nights than your abstract questions while you are rejecting every non-abstract as abstract. Then you call mechanism “the past.” Convenient.

If you are truly interested in the future - ask which reforms will actually move the probability of a durable state in Pakistan, in what order, and which ones are blocked by whose rents that you brought up?

A developer buying land allotments is not “already happened.” It is a living market in state predation.

So before drowning yourself in the comforting fog of “can we exist,”

ASK:
What has to be true in Pakistan, concretely, for capable people to park their money, their skills, and their kids here as a sensible decision. Not as majboori, not as emotional blackmail about pra and sada ghar , and not while the real plan is a passport, a Dubai iqama, or a cousin in Birmingham?

ASK: Of those conditions, which are fauji professional problems and which are civilian party and general culture problems, the same parties that run on personality, biradari, and electables, and the same service that has been politicized into a sifarish machine?

ASK:
Which are not “moral decline” poetry but straight political economy: developer buys the ticket for sarkari plot, businessman buys the clerk for duty-free import, contract, exemption, NOC?

If capture is your big point and it is valid that Pakistanis are for sale by the tola...
Instead of "country rotting" cries -

ASK:

Before an officer’s career is quietly murdered on “attitude” and “reliability,” is there disclosure and a right to answer?

Can procurement be made harder to fix over tea?

Can FBR and customs stop functioning like a private chakla?

Does local government get money and agency, or do we keep everything in the secretariat so the district remains empty air until someone in wardi or ex wardi fills it?

Do promotions reward judgment, or the man who knew when to keep his mouth shut?

Just plain anger without design is just educated becharapan - might as well change your username to Bechara-Dragon-maybe-wont-strike.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

You are not asking - you are taking an escape.

Reform is not antique restoration. It is future capacity.​

Mission command, protected dissent, after action learning, clearer roles, stronger civilian delivery are all ways to take existing issues and improve them. Those who dont learn from history are doomed to repeat it and then cry about it as if there is no future.

As an example aviation does not ignore the last crash because the wreckage is in the past. It rebuilds procedures so the next aircraft stays up.

You asking "Can we ever exist" is a cop out - Pakistan has cleared that bar through worse nights than your abstract questions while you are rejecting every non-abstract as abstract. Then you call mechanism “the past.” Convenient.

If you are truly interested in the future - ask which reforms will actually move the probability of a durable state in Pakistan, in what order, and which ones are blocked by whose rents that you brought up?

A developer buying land allotments is not “already happened.” It is a living market in state predation.

So before drowning yourself in the comforting fog of “can we exist,”

ASK:
What has to be true in Pakistan, concretely, for capable people to park their money, their skills, and their kids here as a sensible decision. Not as majboori, not as emotional blackmail about pra and sada ghar , and not while the real plan is a passport, a Dubai iqama, or a cousin in Birmingham?

ASK: Of those conditions, which are fauji professional problems and which are civilian party and general culture problems, the same parties that run on personality, biradari, and electables, and the same service that has been politicized into a sifarish machine?

ASK:
Which are not “moral decline” poetry but straight political economy: developer buys the ticket for sarkari plot, businessman buys the clerk for duty-free import, contract, exemption, NOC?

If capture is your big point and it is valid that Pakistanis are for sale by the tola...
Instead of "country rotting" cries -

ASK:

Before an officer’s career is quietly murdered on “attitude” and “reliability,” is there disclosure and a right to answer?

Can procurement be made harder to fix over tea?

Can FBR and customs stop functioning like a private chakla?

Does local government get money and agency, or do we keep everything in the secretariat so the district remains empty air until someone in wardi or ex wardi fills it?

Do promotions reward judgment, or the man who knew when to keep his mouth shut?

Just plain anger without design is just educated becharapan - might as well change your username to Bechara-Dragon-maybe-wont-strike.

I agree, you see the problems here

but sadly, you dont see the 'inflation' and paradoxes, which have given us these problems!

post 90, is my reply in that link, not the points you are explaining!

if you have something to explain, please do on the post 90, Im not saying you are wrong, Im asking, can we ever perceive inflation in choices and paradoxes, does it ever happen?!

Post in thread 'Reforming Command Without Weakening It - Part 1 - A Pragmatic Approach for Systemic reform in Pakistan starting with the Army'

Today at 12:30 PM

Destructive Unseen Fires




Before proceeding, I would like to clarify two points: first, I am not making speculative claims and will rely on evidence; second, I am not presenting a post-truth narrative, as its nature is already familiar to us all.

What struck me in this discussion was the implication that these problems emerged independently, as though we played no role in their creation or development. I would instead ask: is there a fire so powerful that everything ultimately surrenders before it? A fire that transforms even the one attempting to extinguish it into fire...

• Mighty_Dragon_Strike

BTW, i am saying you are wrong, bec. your way of sensing truth is wrong!

 

[Distant_Observer]

Harvard and Yale graduates don't join the American military... don't underestimate the quality of our officer , they are as good as any in the west.

Yes they are the cream of the crop of Pakistani society in spirit and mind.

 

[Oscar]

Yes they are the sour cream of the crop of Pakistani society in spirit and mind.

Corrected

 

[peagle]

@Oscar sb

A common explanation given for why military has to intervene in civilian affairs is that civilian authorities are so weak and stunted. But that then brings us to the question as to why civilian authorities are stunted.

In a normal democratic setup (and I am by no means arguing that every country including Pakistan needs to be a democracy), a government has to win the trust of its electorate which it means it must attempt to deliver on what the electorate wants. To deliver that institutions have to be strengthened so that what needs to be delivered is actually delivered. In the subcontinent we were fortunate that we didn't begin from square zero. We actually inherited some healthy (by colonial standards that is) institutions.

Unfortunately, in Pakistan civilian authorities were never allowed an extended run without intervention by unelected elites -which have been both civilians for eg in 1950s and military.

So, we have a chicken and egg situation really. Civilians won't get an extended run so that they can develop some competence. Since they cannot develop competence they will not be trusted by the military or even by large sections of the public to be 100% entrusted with civilian affairs without military oversight.

Regards

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous logic, i will try to provide a detailed answer when i have time. its sufficient to highlight the silliness of this argument.