Hack-Hook
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and shelling Donbas villages for 8 years have nothing to do with that ?
Russia-Ukraine War - News, Discussions & Updates
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hussain0216
Elite Member
Yet you support the same oppression and subjugation by Israel, so why get your panties in a twist about Russia
ahmadbhutta
Registered Member
KingQamaR
Elite Member
First of all, the problem is, according to the US intelligence back in Nov 2022, Russia is using 20000 round a day.
Russia and Ukraine are firing 24,000 or more artillery rounds a day
Russia has lost a lot of equipment, including helicopters, and some of its fresh troops are arriving at the front lines without weapons, say officials.www.nbcnews.com
View attachment 47267
That's 7,300,000 round a year. So, setting aside the fact that Western Doctrine is not Artillery intensive (as this is actually the least effective option in war), hence the low number in the west, Russia production is not really enough to sustain their own usage for a year, less than half a year to be exact. Actually this is a piece of alarming news if you are Russian.
The issue with Artillery is, you have to fire a whole lot to achieve saturation, and it's pointless to use against hardened structure. For example. 12 152mm guns would need to shoot all their assigned ammunition (50 per) to cover a 0.3 square kilometer (300x300 meter box) and then it wouldn't be enough to destroy that square completely. Meaning whatever you wanted to kill will probably still active after that round of 600. The Western Doctrine would have used a single or a couple of missiles/JDAM to engage that target, instead of firing 600 or more artillery round.
On the other hand, you can only engage a very short distant with Artillery (<50 km) so regardless of how many round you shoot, whatever outside that range is safe and it's prone to counter battery fire. Which the latter was not at all active because the US withhold the aid for more than 6 months.
Comparing artillery round made between the West and Russia is not really showing anything. What you need to look at is how they use them and their progress, the reason why Kharkiv Offensive (2024) is the "best" advance the Russian had in the last 18 months in itself showing the deficiency of the Russian military. Given the fact that US withheld their aid when they account for over 60% of Ukrainian supply and the fact that Ukrainian leave the border open is a strategic mistake.
Great job Sir, keep it up.
This war has been hallmarked by offensive surges cut off by barrage artillery and offensive surges led by barrage artillery. I think we are conflating accuracy with precision and that is a wrong take. Accuracy is hitting your target, precision is hitting your target twice in the same identical way. Nato deals in precision weapons for a Ukrainian war that prefers "accurate" barrage, for blessed is the firing solution too wide to miss.
Volume tends to beat accuracy in a fire fight.
j_hungary
Professional
Accuracy means how likely you hit your target; precision mean how close you can hit your target. Those are two different concepts here.
I can fire 1000 rounds and only hit 3 targets, if that is the ONLY target to be hit, then regardless of accuracy, you are doing your job. On the other hand, I can hit 3 targets with 5 precision strikes, the same 3 targets there are, it's still doing the same job, with the difference is I don't need to transport, store and manufacture 1000 rounds of ammunition, I only need 5. That streamline the entire battlespace concepts. Imagining this, if I can use 1000 rounds to hit 600 targets, instead of 3. That the economy of 2000% efficiency.
Volume beat accuracy in a firefight, that only happens in 2 conditions. 1.) That is a standalone firefight. 2.) You are talking about unlimited supplies.
Viet
VIP Member
those are separatists. they receive men, money, weapons, foods and everything else from the kremlins. they deserve the shellings. without russian infiltration the separatists won´t last a month, then they are all dead.
KingQamaR
Elite Member
Artillery a great topic. Artillery is the thing that causes the most casualties in combat. Russian artillery fire has been quantity over quality. Even their mortars were smoothbore, less accurate but cheaper to make. You just fire 5 or 6 times more, to hit the target. But that requires firing huge amounts of ammunition, which is what Russia did. In the initial invasion, Russian targeting and accuracy was less, now getting better , .Russian communications have improved. But Ukraine is getting better as well, with better guns. Having a battery fire one round at a time is fairly pointless.
Russian fire was based on PERs (projectile expenditure rate, a mathematical calculation of how many rounds are needed to neutralise a type of target. But even they realised that direct fire was more effective than indirect fire.
i think I have said all I can on this.
TopGun786
Trusted Member
TopGun786
Trusted Member
Always twisted logic to make it suitable to your own narrative.
TopGun786
Trusted Member
Yes the train has left.... It was written... It was bound to happen.
Great war of our times is coming.
Doom of certain races is inevitable.
Weaks are going to rise and rule the world again.
Tyranny, hypocrisy and injustice are going to end.
And yes, only a tiny fraction of human race will left behind.
SolarWarden
Trusted Member
They are clearing the skies for Ukraine F-16's
I think Russia has one s300/400 battery left in Ukraine.
F-16's are going to have no issues JDAM-ing Russian targets in Crimea now that "advanced" long range Russian IADS have been take out. Russian CAP pretty much doesn't exist so they don't have to worry about SU-35 intercepting them. The EM and physical signature of a Russian s300/400 battery is way too big to hide from US ELINT/SIGNINT and ISR that once these Russian SAMs get set up their location has been compromise by US.
I think Russia has one s300/400 battery left in Ukraine.
F-16's are going to have no issues JDAM-ing Russian targets in Crimea now that "advanced" long range Russian IADS have been take out. Russian CAP pretty much doesn't exist so they don't have to worry about SU-35 intercepting them. The EM and physical signature of a Russian s300/400 battery is way too big to hide from US ELINT/SIGNINT and ISR that once these Russian SAMs get set up their location has been compromise by US.
TopGun786
Trusted Member
Yes and yet there is a terrorist, baby killer nation, israhell, who invaded Palestine some 8 decades ago... With the aid of USA, Britain and a few other European terrorists.... Killed and removed local Palestinians from their homes and lands... Mass murders, rapes, setting fires to properties, stealing and what not.
All this under the umbrella of specially USA.
And when the remaining locals resisted against invaders they were again carpet bombed with money and arms supplied from USA.
So question is why this same logic is not applied there when Palestinian issue is a lot more old, tragic and crucial than Ukrainian issue??
Same NATO is activly and blatantly involved in genocide of Palestinian people and not even bothered about it.
TopGun786
Trusted Member
Exactly.Unfortunately so. It's destined to happen and is prophecy. A massive war in which 999/1000 will perish. Only nuclear war can achieve such destruction
All thanks to NATO not listening to the legitimate concerns of Russia + meddling in other countries affairs.
But as it was written... No one can stop it now.
It is bound to happen.
j_hungary
Professional
The reason why the west doesn't really depend on artillery is because of the logistical nightmare you are going to get into. The closest we have in the west with an artillery war is back in WW1/2 when we depend on artillery to prep an area before moving in (read Battle of Caen or Battle of Hurtgen Forrest).
The issue of this, however, is that you heavily depend on road network (we called MSR nowadays) it's easy to make 10 million shells, it's just material and money, the issue here is, how do you get 10 million shells across the US and into Europe and then distribute it amongst the troop. That's the big issue we face. We come up with Red Ball express, Base 901 and so on. But even then, it really does stretch the Allied line thin, and the Ardennes Offensive happened. The only thing is, German was in a much worse shape in terms of supplies and logistic than us. When they roll into Allied supplies depot after they pushes back Allied division, they often found those supply depot was either destroyed or emptied. That is what sap the German strength back in WW2 and thawed the Ardennes Offensive.
Face forward to Ukraine war. The issue why Russia gain is majority between the first 6 months is because of this, you can prepare all you can on a war, but once you launch your operation, that's it, there goes the preparation, then we enter the sustainment stage. Ie how do you keep your momentum going, and one part of that question is how you keep your troop supplied. While Russia didn't face the same problem, we face back in WW2 primarily because they are fighting next to their homeland, while we have 2 plane trips and a cruise, but then it is going to be the same issue, because you can of course made 3 or 7 or 10 million artillery shell, the undertaking of just transporting them from A to B is a big issue, not sure how Russia did their logistic, in the West, you are talking about 100,000 463L Master Pallet a year. Considering this, a single C-17 can carry 18 of those.
Being precise is not having a battery firing one round at a time, being precise mean, you can drop close to your target, you don't deviate from your target, so any round that lands between you switch from target 1 to target 2 are generally wasted. If you can save from wasting those rounds, then you don't need that much munition to begin with. Whether or not smart artillery round or JDAM, we are talking about the economy of war. Material Support/Transport Cost (not the money aspect, but the wear/tear/attrition/replacement aspect) are going to deteriorate as the war drag on, because capability, you always start with 100%, and nobody can keep it at 100% after the war has started, which mean usually the country have the smallest logistic footprint win the logistic war.
Soldier35
Registered Member
The Ukrainian T-72AMT tank was equipped with radio control in Russia. Russian military personnel tested the T-72AMT radio-controlled tank. The T-72AMT was previously used by the Ukrainian army. Operators control the tank like an FPV drone, using a remote control and FPV glasses. The radio control range is not reported, presumably it can be the same as that of FPV drones up to 15 km, but the tank can be equipped with a more powerful transmitter, and communication repeaters can also be used. T-72AMT is a Ukrainian modification of the T-72A tanks produced in 2017 at the Kiev Armored Plant. The tank has undergone many upgrades. In terms of protection, the tank is close to the Russian T-72B3 tanks. Today, the Ukrainian army has about 40 T-72AMT tanks, some of which have not received all the improvements included in the project.
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