TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[Michael]

So again long story short: CHINA WILL NOT SUPPLY ENGINES FOR KAAN TO TURKEY!

So far, this rhetoric has been limited to internet discussions. Yes, it has not led to any substantive action.

Regarding this discussion, my views are:

1. WS-10C? There's no chance of that happening. Before the PLAAF's first batch of J-20s (WS-10Cs) begin to be retired, there is no possibility of exporting the WS-10C. This is based on national security strategy and there is no room for negotiation.

2. The WS-10B? It can indeed be exported. However, equipping one's own export fighters with spare engines and exporting engines solely for other countries' fighters are two completely different concepts.

Why would china not sell engines if its willing to sell jets.

Your statement is not in line with your status. It is too childish. ------ Exporting engines separately for other countries' fighter jets means that you need to do a lot of adaptation work and open some of the engine's control codes to flight control system developers.
Yes. The WS-10B is a possibility.
But.
Is Turkey willing to purchase the WS-10B to power the KAAN?
China will not impose political conditions, but it would require Turkey to make some politically friendly moves first. Is Türkiye willing? (In the current Chinese perception, Türkiye is a potential hostile country, not a friendly country. )
I think it is impossible for China and Türkiye to reach a deal on the WS-10B engine.

3. What can Pakistan do about this?
The best approach for Pakistan is to do nothing. This matter has nothing to do with Pakistan.

So again long story short: CHINA WILL NOT SUPPLY ENGINES FOR KAAN TO TURKEY!
At least, this view holds true for the next 20-30 years.

 

[Deino]

So far, this rhetoric has been limited to internet discussions. Yes, it has not led to any substantive action.

Regarding this discussion, my views are:

1. WS-10C? There's no chance of that happening. Before the PLAAF's first batch of J-20s (WS-10Cs) begin to be retired, there is no possibility of exporting the WS-10C. This is based on national security strategy and there is no room for negotiation.

2. The WS-10B? It can indeed be exported. However, equipping one's own export fighters with spare engines and exporting engines solely for other countries' fighters are two completely different concepts.

Your statement is not in line with your status. It is too childish. ------ Exporting engines separately for other countries' fighter jets means that you need to do a lot of adaptation work and open some of the engine's control codes to flight control system developers.
Yes. The WS-10B is a possibility.
But.
Is Turkey willing to purchase the WS-10B to power the KAAN?
China will not impose political conditions, but it would require Turkey to make some politically friendly moves first. Is Türkiye willing? (In the current Chinese perception, Türkiye is a potential hostile country, not a friendly country. )
I think it is impossible for China and Türkiye to reach a deal on the WS-10B engine.

3. What can Pakistan do about this?
The best approach for Pakistan is to do nothing. This matter has nothing to do with Pakistan.

So again long story short: CHINA WILL NOT SUPPLY ENGINES FOR KAAN TO TURKEY!
At least, this view holds true for the next 20-30 years.

Ok, guys ... if you don't thrust me since I'm usually rated a typical biased German, then trust him!

 

[MMM-E]

So again long story short: CHINA WILL NOT SUPPLY ENGINES FOR KAAN TO TURKEY!
At least, this view holds true for the next 20-30 years.

for the next 20-30 years ?

Turkish TF-35.000 engine will power the KAAN in 7-10 years ( 2032-2035 period )

We will begin flight tests of KAAN with the TF-35,000 engine starting in 2029.


Turkiye needs stop gap solution to produce 20-40 KAAN until 2029 with American or Chinese engine to avoid being at a disadvantage in the region against the F-35s

 

[MMM-E]

Türkiye is a potential hostile country, not a friendly country. )
I think it is impossible for China and Türkiye to reach a deal on the WS-10B engine.

Why are Turks fighting with USA over the Chinese project ?

Then Turkiye should block China's OBOR project if no win-win concept
even China should give 50-100 WS-10 engines for free to Turkiye

Alternative trade routes are emerging as the more traditional Russian route, which for decades functioned as the most active corridor between the EU and China, now faces hurdles as a result of Western sanctions.

The war in Ukraine could prompt China to seek a greater role in the development of the Middle Corridor ... ( from China-Kazakhstan-Azerbaijan-Turkiye to Europe )

 

[Merzifonlu]

Turkiye needs stop gap solution to produce 20-40 KAAN until 2029 with American or Chinese engine to avoid being at a disadvantage in the region against the F-35s

Forget it already! By 2029, there's a 90% chance we'll get the same thrust as the F-110, reliably, from the TF35000 engine. We'll produce 40 Kaan fighter jets with the "early entry" TF35000. Why should we even bother with foreigners for only 40 Kaan?

Do you know what really worries me? The possibility that the Air Force Command is filled with narrow-minded and bigoted individuals like Levent Özgül. Bigotry isn't limited to religious matters, as you know.

I'll remind you that the same Air Force Command turned up its nose at the Hisar Air Defense System Project from the very beginning. The Land Forces' Air Defense Unit initiated that project. Later, out of necessity, it was expanded to include other forces.

I have no concerns about the engine or technical issues. Even if there are technical issues, they'll be resolved during the development process. But no progress can be made with people like Levent Özgül. That man's "mental qibla" is the USA Air Force.

 

[Faceless]

Forget it already! By 2029, there's a 90% chance we'll get the same thrust as the F-110, reliably, from the TF35000 engine.

Just so you know 2029 is only 4 years away

 

[Michael]

Why are Turks fighting with USA over the Chinese project ?

Then Turkiye should block China's OBOR project if no win-win concept
even China should give 50-100 WS-10 engines for free to Turkiye

Alternative trade routes are emerging as the more traditional Russian route, which for decades functioned as the most active corridor between the EU and China, now faces hurdles as a result of Western sanctions.

The war in Ukraine could prompt China to seek a greater role in the development of the Middle Corridor ... ( from China-Kazakhstan-Azerbaijan-Turkiye to Europe )
View attachment 151137

Clearly, you have no understanding of international politics.

Turkey could certainly sever these economic ties.

However, economic relations between countries are reciprocal. Turkey has also benefited significantly from China's Belt and Road Initiative. If it severs these ties, it would also suffer greatly. However, China has other options.

It's clear that it would be meaningless for Turkey to threaten China in this way.
Recall the China-US trade war. Let's see who will be hurt the most.

Military issues/national security are completely different from economic issues.

Turkiye needs stop gap solution to produce 20-40 KAAN until 2029 with American or Chinese engine to avoid being at a disadvantage in the region against the F-35s

You think replacing an engine is a simple task?

Just because you're only buying a few dozen engines, China has to do a ton of adaptation work and provide you with the engine control codes?

Who do you think you are?

 

[Michael]

BTW, this debate is meaningless.

How is Turkey's KAAN developing? How is Turkey's domestically produced engines developing?

We have no intention of blocking it, nor do we care.

But one thing is certain: China will not provide any assistance in this regard.

 

[hodor]

But one thing is certain

Hu Jintao spoke.

 

[Ali_Baba]

BTW, this debate is meaningless.

How is Turkey's KAAN developing? How is Turkey's domestically produced engines developing?

We have no intention of blocking it, nor do we care.

But one thing is certain: China will not provide any assistance in this regard.

Would China sell to Turkieye, engines in the class of what the Kaan needs, purely on commercial terms ? ie sell engines only, nothing else ?

 

[Merzifonlu]

Just so you know 2029 is only 4 years away

I know it's only 4 years away. Turbofan engines quickly reach 2/3 of the targeted thrust within 3 - 4 years after first ignition. And the thrust level of the F110 is exactly 2/3 of the targeted thrust level of the TF35000!

However, achieving the remaining one-third of thrust, the desired reliability, and long maintenance intervals will take longer. First ignition will be in 2026; that's how it was planned.

We could achieve F110 level thrust from TF35000 engine around 2029. But this would have three significant drawbacks, and it seems we'll have to endure them.

First, the engine's maintenance intervals will be quite short, perhaps around 500 hours or even short. For comparison, the GE F110 reached 6,000 hours. So, the GE F110 is an extremely durable engine. We shouldn't expect this in the TF35000 at the initial stage.

Second, the engine's fuel efficiency will likely be low initially.

Third and finally, the risk of engine failure in flight will be higher compared to the F110.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Transfer of tech is very different from engine sales off the shelf. Engine sales are nothing more than the sale of the Aircraft but without the aircraft, infact most fighter jet sales are done with spare engines anyways. Why would china not sell engines if its willing to sell jets.

It is an interesting question, maybe China will feel that with Turkiye being a NATO country, that the sale of engines will disclose performance characteristics of those engines that they rather not have the rest of NATO see?

There are strategic issues of military secrecy and confidentiality when dealing with a NATO country, we don't know how much NATO countries are obliged to share with other countries, that kind of information (that also applies to the S400 i know).

 

[Ali_Baba]

Turkiye work on engine projects as National Emergency kind of situation. Plus also try to get some engines from Rolls Royce which are close to being equal in capability to the jet.

The Tempest project will have a new engine, so if that engine is ready by Rolls Royce, there is an outside chance that the Kaan could use some variant of it. The Eurofighter purchase does open up some new possibilities for Turkiye. Currently, I don't think Rolls Royce has any engine that could be used to power the Kaan as the GE F110 is rated for 120kn+ of thrust.

There was some talk of developing a EF200 derivative with that in mind, but that project never got off the ground at all with Turkiye and i can't see Rolls Royce designing and building that without firm orders of some size in place. Rolls Royce had pitched that same derivative concept to India for the AMCA/LCA Mk2 project, but India went with France in the end for that project.

EF200 is too underpowered to be used in Kaan, that much is clear.

 

[Michael]

Would China sell to Turkieye, engines in the class of what the Kaan needs, purely on commercial terms ? ie sell engines only, nothing else ?

This kind of thing can never be a purely commercial undertaking.

I've already said this.
WS-10C? Not for at least 20-30 years. WS-15 is even less likely.
WS-10B? There are some possibilities. But the cost to Turkey would be enormous. I don't think Turkey is willing to pay that price.

This is a Pakistani forum. Due to Pakistan's good relations with Turkey, it's not appropriate to engage in a deeper discussion of the China-Turkey issue here.

So, let's get back to the GE F110 and TF35000. Forget about the Chinese turbofan engines.

 

[Deino]

Why are Turks fighting with USA over the Chinese project ?

Then Turkiye should block China's OBOR project if no win-win concept even China should give 50-100 WS-10 engines for free to Turkiye
…

This sentence alone shows your totally wrong, wrecked, delusional and in fact arrogant mindset! As if China would give anything for free and even more so as if Turkey has a right for anything!??

You are really the wildest hard-core fan-boy and nationalist I ever met in any forum.