TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[hyperman]

Actually, I said it was outdated in terms of thrust class. I know the M88 engine is constantly being updated.

On the other hand, if France is developing a core that will operate around 2200 Kelvin, I think the new engine's thrust class would be at the F135 level. France wouldn't try to reproduce the thrust of the M88 class.

I suspect the French are nowhere near a new engine. RollsRoyce has actually released a roadmap for a new engine for Tempest with Variable cycles, haven't seen anything from the French. They may very well use the M88 engine as a temp solution for their FCAS.

 

[royalharris]

France is one of only four countries in the world capable of independently developing and producing medium-thrust military aircraft engines.
Germany, like most countries, can just put on a show by drawing up a roadmap, making a PowerPoint, presenting an impressive-looking model, and then coasting on the bragging.
France is clearly far ahead of Germany in aircraft engine technology.

 

[Merzifonlu]

I suspect the French are nowhere near a new engine. RollsRoyce has actually released a roadmap for a new engine for Tempest with Variable cycles, haven't seen anything from the French. They may very well use the M88 engine as a temp solution for their FCAS.

An FCAS that produces thrust using an engine in the M88 class would be roughly on par with the KF-21. It wouldn't be in the F22, Kaan, or Su-57 class. Do you think the French would accept this?

 

[BonPlan]

No its not. Its Thrust to weight ratio is nowhere near the F414. The F414 is a superior engine in every way.

you are wrong.
F414 : 1110 kg for 97KN trust => T/W = 87 (3.9m long, 89cm diameter)
M88 : 897Kg for 75KN => T/W = 84 (3.54m long, 69cm diameter)

Whaouh, what a huge difference !!!! less than 4%.... and if you are a little bit technically educated, you must know that the smaller the engine is, the less the T/W is. Not too bad to make a far smaller engine with only 3,5% perf difference....

 

[BonPlan]

France is one of only four countries in the world capable of independently developing and producing medium-thrust military aircraft engines.
Germany, like most countries, can just put on a show by drawing up a roadmap, making a PowerPoint, presenting an impressive-looking model, and then coasting on the bragging.
France is clearly far ahead of Germany in aircraft engine technology.

They are five.

1st unmatched is USA,
second and third are France and UK (I don't know who is the best)
fourth is russia (less evolved than european ones)
fifth is china (so far mainly copy and paste).

 

[BonPlan]

An FCAS that produces thrust using an engine in the M88 class would be roughly on par with the KF-21. It wouldn't be in the F22, Kaan, or Su-57 class. Do you think the French would accept this?

It is not because the FCAS prototyp was supposed to use a M88 derivative than the serially FCAS would use it !
1) Safran already have flight tested a 9tons M88. A 10.5T was already studied.
2) for limited flight tests, it is always possible to boost an engine, with a life span reduction.
3) M88 was choosen because no intelectual property issue. Not the EJ200 case for exemple, not to speak of US ones.

 

[BonPlan]

I suspect the French are nowhere near a new engine. RollsRoyce has actually released a roadmap for a new engine for Tempest with Variable cycles, haven't seen anything from the French. They may very well use the M88 engine as a temp solution for their FCAS.

Do you have read something about T-Rex before it was officially release last year? no.

There will be a new french engine. there were several R&D programs these last years about it, specially to reach higher core temperature (2200°K at least).

The sole question seems variable cycle or not. The french air force top brass are not keen to go on this complicated and costly technology, with not so impressive results (they say). The french air force, for years, are very sensitive to utilisation costs.

 

[royalharris]

They are five.

1st unmatched is USA,
second and third are France and UK (I don't know who is the best)
fourth is russia (less evolved than european ones)
fifth is china (so far mainly copy and paste).

You are right 10 years aho
You are wrong today

USA>Russia and China>Uk and France

UK and France lag behind China and Russia in WS10C and AL41 level engine , let alone WS15 and AL51 level.

It is precisely the powerful WS-10C engine that enables the single-engine J-10C fighter to surpass the twin-engine Rafale in both high-speed performance and agility.

 

[Afif]

They are five.

1st unmatched is USA,
second and third are France and UK (I don't know who is the best)
fourth is russia (less evolved than european ones)
fifth is china (so far mainly copy and paste).

Don't take it personally, but I think France's best jet getting knocked out by third tier Chinese jet might compells you to be extra bias in this types of discussion.

Chinese today successfully mass producing indigenous designs like WS-15 and WS-19 equipped with locally developed single crystal blades and fitting them on operatinal aircrafts like J20A/J-20S + J-35. This is successful departure from WS-10 and WS-13/21 series that draws heavily on Western and Russian designs. Even then, Russian themselves still struggling to mass produce new generation single crystal blade fitted engines. I still think even though France and UK lacks engines in F-119/WS-15 class, both obviously has still has better gas turbine technologies than Chinese. Though this gap might not remain for long time due to the resource advantages China brings to this competition.

 

[Ali_Baba]

They are five.

1st unmatched is USA,
second and third are France and UK (I don't know who is the best)
fourth is russia (less evolved than european ones)
fifth is china (so far mainly copy and paste).

People who seem to think that Germany cannot achieve the level of the UK in aerospace engine technology for fighter jets are crazy insane people. The UK are ahead of France in this space. Don't confuse end platform manufacturing with the depth of aerospace engineering in the UK overall.

Also. Never underestimate Germany in engineering, when they minds are focused on a goal they get things done.

Germany is now focused on buidling its own aerospace industry following the FCAS fiasco and they will overtake France in ALL domains, just wait and watch. They have the people, the institutions, the pedigree and the money(something France struggles with) and now they finally have the appetite....

Just wait and watch.

 

[hyperman]

An FCAS that produces thrust using an engine in the M88 class would be roughly on par with the KF-21. It wouldn't be in the F22, Kaan, or Su-57 class. Do you think the French would accept this?

When the French design, they also design for Aircraft carrier. I believe the preference for Aircraft carriers is a medium size fighter rather than a heavy fighter, and if thats the case, then it makes sense to use a M88 sized engine and a fighter similar to the J-35 or KF-21.

 

[hyperman]

you are wrong.
F414 : 1110 kg for 97KN trust => T/W = 87 (3.9m long, 89cm diameter)
M88 : 897Kg for 75KN => T/W = 84 (3.54m long, 69cm diameter)

Whaouh, what a huge difference !!!! less than 4%.... and if you are a little bit technically educated, you must know that the smaller the engine is, the less the T/W is. Not too bad to make a far smaller engine with only 3,5% perf difference....

The F414-EPE and newer variants have 26,400 lbf (117 kN), giving an almost 11:1 thrust/weight ratio.

The M88 is underpowered, compared to both the F414 and the EJ200.

 

[hyperman]

UK and France lag behind China and Russia in WS10C and AL41 level engine , let alone WS15 and AL51 level.

RollsRoyce lags behind no one on this planet in engine tech, not even GE. France/Snecma should not be in the same breathe as RollsRoyce.

 

[BonPlan]

People who seem to think that Germany cannot achieve the level of the UK in aerospace engine technology for fighter jets are crazy insane people. The UK are ahead of France in this space. Don't confuse end platform manufacturing with the depth of aerospace engineering in the UK overall.

Also. Never underestimate Germany in engineering, when they minds are focused on a goal they get things done.

Germany is now focused on buidling its own aerospace industry following the FCAS fiasco and they will overtake France in ALL domains, just wait and watch. They have the people, the institutions, the pedigree and the money(something France struggles with) and now they finally have the appetite....

Just wait and watch.

Germany has not study and produce a whole jet engine since 75 years.
See how china struglled and India struggle to enter in this small club !
Germany is decades ahead in this field.

UK ahead of France ? big LOL.
See the Nimrod upgrade fiasco, see how many Astute sub are ready to war, see how is their navy ! it is a falling country.

 

[BonPlan]

When the French design, they also design for Aircraft carrier. I believe the preference for Aircraft carriers is a medium size fighter rather than a heavy fighter, and if thats the case, then it makes sense to use a M88 sized engine and a fighter similar to the J-35 or KF-21.

no.
We need a heavy fighter (maybe lighter than the german one) to carry internally the deterrent ASN4G. And if not, why building a 80.000 tons carrier ?