The origin of Han China was Vietnamese?

[ety]

Funny that you bring up Shijing because Chu was excluded from it which proves they were considered outside of Huaxia ethnically. Chu were considered savage barbarians by Huaxia, can you explain why Han emperors were obsessed with barbarian Chu culture if they were Huaxia

Shusun Tong wore Confucian robes. The prince of Han [Liu Bang] detested them, so Tong changed them and wore the short tunic, in the style of Chu. The prince of Han was pleased.7
the region he understood to be Chu, the people employed shamans in the worship of "ghosts and spirits" (guishen) and placed great weight on yinsi (excessive, or lewd, rites) a term used by Han and later writers to describe the religious practices of other peoples. These regional practices involved great expenditures, dancing and singing, animal sacrifices, and the use of shamans, exorcism, or prayers to local gods.11 They were the practices, in fact, that the Han emperors were obsessed with, much to the distress of their Confucian ministers

But was the Han dynasty ethnically Chinese? Yuan and Qing both ruled China but you cannot say they were ethnically Chinese, you call yourselves Han because the Han
dynasty existed much further back in time so presumed to be Chinese which is not the case, the Chu/Han were ethnically not the same as you

Huaxia ethnically is the amalgamation of all the Sino-Tibetan people from Shang and Zhou

Lol, you know the very superficial of Chinese history and culture, there were other states in Central China that were not included in Shijin, such as 燕国, 吴国 and 蔡国 . Chu was considered less civilized and distant by some other states mainly because Chu's rulers lineage was not originally from the Zhou kings relatives and Chu was far away. Many Chinese at the time did dislike Confucianism just like the Westerners originally despised Christianity. Liu Bang disliked rigid and solemn Confucian rituals and practices was his personal choice. So if someone disliked Confucianism, the person must be not Houxia Chinese ? Lol, then the first emperor of China must be non Chinese too because be banned the practice of Confucianism, and burned their books. Lol, Viet has the same sound as Yue in Chinese that is Cantonese, there is no real evidence that Vietnamese came from Chu. There is evidence that Cantonese and Vietnamese are related to some degree as recorded in history and their languages sounds similar to certain extent.

 

[chuethnic]

Lol, you know the very superficial of Chinese history and culture, there were other states in Central China that were not included in Shijin, such as 燕国, 吴国 and 蔡国 . Chu was considered less civilized and distant by some other states mainly because Chu's rulers lineage was not originally from the Zhou kings relatives and Chu was far away. Many Chinese at the time did dislike Confucianism just like the Westerners originally despised Christianity. Liu Bang disliked rigid and solemn Confucian rituals and practices was his personal choice. So if someone disliked Confucianism, the person must be not Houxia Chinese ? Lol, then the first emperor of China must be non Chinese too because be banned the practice of Confucianism, and burned their books. Lol, Viet has the same sound as Yue in Chinese that is Cantonese, there is no real evidence that Vietnamese came from Chu. There is evidence that Cantonese and Vietnamese are related to some degree as recorded in history and their languages sounds similar to certain extent.

Wu is excluded because they were also non Sinitic southern barbarians, Yan is represented by Shaonan, isn't it interesting that Cai and Yan both had the Hou noble title while Wu, Yue, Chu only had Zi? Cai and Yan were blood related to Zhou so for whatever reason Cai was left out their noble rank still indicates they were Huaxia ethnically while the lowly ranks of Chu, Wu, Yue suggests racist prejudice, this is further proven by the fact Yan was considered barabrian culturally and so was Qin and yet Qin was Bo not Zi

Chu people were hunted by Huaxia and King Zhao even died trying to conquer Chu, stop the revisionism
The northern association of an ancient Chu-Jing region with "barbarians" can be traced to the Western Zhou period (1056 771 BCE). In Western Zhou bronze inscriptions, southerners, referred to both as manyi and nanyi (southern Yi-peoples), were the objects of repressive military campaigns. Zhou warriors were rewarded for capturing people and booty, most particularly in the form of metal. 7 Inscriptions proclaimed the "taming" of the Chu and Jing peoples, noting that the leaders of the man came to the Zhou court

Liu Bang is non Chinese not because he disliked Confucianism, he was non Chinese because he was obsessed with Chu, Chu were considered barbarians and no Huaxia ethnic would ever associate with such a foreign culture especially when they are the emperor living all the way in Xi'an far away from Chu unless they were natively from that culture. Can you imagine Xi Jinping suddenly being obsessed with Vietnamese people and culture?
For the next few generations of the Han imperial house, Chu lived on as a culture that had to be self-consciously maintained, the more so as the culture that was actually lived moved farther and farther away from it. Rich rewards were given to those who could sing the classical songs of Chu (known as the Chuci, but not necessarily all the same as the core of the anthology that comes down to us by that name). Zhu Maichen, for example, who had spent decades in impoverishment so deep that his wife abandoned him, won favor with Emperor Wu because he could sing and explicate the old Chu songs.
Zhu Maichen was eventually appointed governor of Kuaiji and, before he lost everything to intrigue, rose to become one of the nine highest ministers of the empire. 19 Such examples encouraged the ambitious to study and imitate Chu poetry and music. Thus the culture of Chu became a metropolitan fad sustained by imperial nostalgia and sporadic literary discoveries from the princely provinces set up by the Han in the former Chu domains.

No evidence?

• rulers of chu were called 熊, rulers of vietnam were called 雄
• chu people were also called 荊, vietnamese are called 京
• it is impossible for vietnamese to use 'xiong' and 'jing' in the same context by chance

 

[ety]

So you think Singaporeans came from Indonesia because Fujian and Guangdong are too far away? You acknowledge the existence of Zhao Tuo despite Hebei being even further away from Nanyue than Hunan is from Vietnam?

What are you talking about, people had access to the seas could usually travel to far away lands easily through sailing whereas inland people were very difficult to sail by the seas, that's a common sense, Chu people would have to travel through NanYue territory to get to Vietnam, that would be very difficult. That's why nearly all recent Chinese immigrants to other lands came from Chinese coastal provinces. Lol, Zhao Tuo and his army was sent from the Qin empire to conquer the NanYue while Hunan was already under Qin's rule at the time, you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[chuethnic]

What are you talking about, people had access to the seas could usually travel to far away lands easily through sailing whereas inland people were very difficult to sail by the seas, that's a common sense, Chu people would have to travel through NanYue territory to get to Vietnam, that would be very difficult. That's why nearly all recent Chinese immigrants to other lands came from Chinese coastal provinces. Lol, Zhao Tuo and his army was sent from the Qin empire to conquer the NanYue while Hunan was already under Qin's rule at the time, you don't know what you are talking about.

Look at where the most populous region is in Lingnan

The Nanyue kingdom, based in present-day Guangzhou (Canton), had enjoyed a
commanding position on the Tongking Gulf coast until the Han conquest in III
B.C.E., after which the southern political and economic center of gravity moved to
Jiaozhi. This change seemed to have resulted from a deliberate Han policy; but
why would the dynasty want to favor Jiaozhi and suppress Guangzhou? The most
obvious answer, from a central government viewpoint, is that Jiaozhi was easier
to access and control. Until the eighth century, when the Five Passes land route
was opened to Guangdong, the gulf region was always better connected to central
China, thanks to the Ling canal ("Smart Trench"), which had been dug between
223 and 214 B.C.E to transport Qin troops south. It linked the Yangzi with the
Xiang River in Hunan, from where traffic accessed the Li River in Guangxi and
the North and South Liu Rivers leading to the Hepu maritime port. This important
economic corridor also formed the confluence of the two major cultures of
southern China-the Chu and Yue--as is shown by the large number of Han
tombs uncovered along it. I It was also a strategically significant route. In 40 C.E.,
after the Trung sisters rebelled in Jiaozhi, the forces of the "Wave-Cahning General"
Ma Yuan, who was ordered to put down the rebellion, took this very route to
JiaozhLl Aland route also existed, running from today's Liuzholl via the Yu River
to the Southern Pass. By both land and water, Guangxi thus held a crucial position.
Jiaozhi also provided the court with easier access to Yunnan and beyond,3 by a
route that went up the Red River to Yunnan before pushing on to the overland
"yak road" (maoniu dao) in modem Sichuan.'
Most important, Jiaozhi was the nearest point between the Han court and the
maritime silk road before it became possible to travel across the open sea in the
eighth century. Sea travel favored Canton. Until then, Canton's earlier access to
Southeast Asia had necessarily passed via its contacts with Jiaozhi. All these
factors worked in favor of Jiaozhi, whose prosperity it helped to sustain until the
eighth century.

Now tell me, if Vietnam was the most easily accesible area in Lingnan from Central China which part of China was closest to Vietnam at that time? Hunan?

 

[ety]

Wu is excluded because they were also non Sinitic southern barbarians, Yan is represented by Shaonan, isn't it interesting that Cai and Yan both had the Hou noble title while Wu, Yue, Chu only had Zi? Cai and Yan were blood related to Zhou so for whatever reason Cai was left out their noble rank still indicates they were Huaxia ethnically while the lowly ranks of Chu, Wu, Yue suggests racist prejudice, this is further proven by the fact Yan was considered barabrian culturally and so was Qin and yet Qin was Bo not Zi

Chu people were hunted by Huaxia and King Zhao even died trying to conquer Chu, stop the revisionism
The northern association of an ancient Chu-Jing region with "barbarians" can be traced to the Western Zhou period (1056 771 BCE). In Western Zhou bronze inscriptions, southerners, referred to both as manyi and nanyi (southern Yi-peoples), were the objects of repressive military campaigns. Zhou warriors were rewarded for capturing people and booty, most particularly in the form of metal. 7 Inscriptions proclaimed the "taming" of the Chu and Jing peoples, noting that the leaders of the man came to the Zhou court

Liu Bang is non Chinese not because he disliked Confucianism, he was non Chinese because he was obsessed with Chu, Chu were considered barbarians and no Huaxia ethnic would ever associate with such a foreign culture especially when they are the emperor living all the way in Xi'an far away from Chu unless they were natively from that culture. Can you imagine Xi Jinping suddenly being obsessed with Vietnamese people and culture?
For the next few generations of the Han imperial house, Chu lived on as a culture that had to be self-consciously maintained, the more so as the culture that was actually lived moved farther and farther away from it. Rich rewards were given to those who could sing the classical songs of Chu (known as the Chuci, but not necessarily all the same as the core of the anthology that comes down to us by that name). Zhu Maichen, for example, who had spent decades in impoverishment so deep that his wife abandoned him, won favor with Emperor Wu because he could sing and explicate the old Chu songs.
Zhu Maichen was eventually appointed governor of Kuaiji and, before he lost everything to intrigue, rose to become one of the nine highest ministers of the empire. 19 Such examples encouraged the ambitious to study and imitate Chu poetry and music. Thus the culture of Chu became a metropolitan fad sustained by imperial nostalgia and sporadic literary discoveries from the princely provinces set up by the Han in the former Chu domains.

No evidence?

• rulers of chu were called 熊, rulers of vietnam were called 雄
• chu people were also called 荊, vietnamese are called 京
• it is impossible for vietnamese to use 'xiong' and 'jing' in the same context by chance

Lol, many states in that period considered some other states to be less civilized to varying degree, so, what's your point ? it's a real world. Even in today's world, countries still hold similar views. 燕, 蔡 and 吴 were not considered barbarians, their rulers lineage was from Zhou's kings lineage. So what if Liu Bang was fascinated by Chu culture ? The region was once ruled by Chu and that's what he grew up with.

 

[chuethnic]

Lol, many states in that period considered some other states to be less civilized to varying degree, so, what's your point ? it's a real world. Even in today's world, countries still hold similar views. 燕, 蔡 and 吴 were not considered barbarians, their rulers lineage was from Zhou's kings lineage. So what if Liu Bang was fascinated by Chu culture ? The region was once ruled by Chu and that's what he grew up with.

I didn't say Cai were considered barbarian but Yan and Wu were and Wu's lineage was clearly fabricated. But anyway you can consider someone less civilised but you will not treat them with such hatred if they have the same blood as you. Taiwanese look down on you Chinese but despite that you are blood related so they will always treat you better than they will treat a SEA who they also look down on.

Liu Bang's birthplace was only conquered by Chu for 60 years, that is in no way enough time for Huaxia people to adopt Chu culture, let me emphasise that Chu were DETESTED by Huaxia. Let me ask you again why would Xi Jingping love Vietnamese culture despite Chinese are prejudiced to Vietnamese

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

came from present day Taiwan.

It is also theorized the Polynesians are also from Taiwan/Phillipines

Polynesians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Other studies in 2016 and 2017 also support the implications that the earliest Lapita settlers mostly bypassed New Guinea, coming directly from Taiwan or the northern Philippines. The intermarriage and admixture with Australo-Melanesian Papuans evident in the genetics of modern Polynesians (as well as Islander Melanesians) occurred after the settlement of Tonga and Vanuatu.

 

[Hendarto]

So you think Singaporeans came from Indonesia because Fujian and Guangdong are too far away? You acknowledge the existence of Zhao Tuo despite Hebei being even further away from Nanyue than Hunan is from Vietnam? Vietnamese are close to Cantonese because both sets of people assimilated the Baiyue natives, the natives of Vietnam or Dongsonians direct descendants today are the Zhuang not Vietnamese

Premodern Vietnamese predominantly identified with Nam ie Southerners not Viet

The most common autonym in Vietnamese texts was “South” (Nam). For Vietnamese, Dai Viet was the Southern Country (Nam Quoc) ruled by the southern emperor. It was also frequently called the “Heavenly South,” the “Great South,” or “our South.” China was the explicit northern half of this binary. In Vietnamese texts, China is referred to as the
Northern Country, ruled by the northern emperor and populated by northerners. As implied in Ly Thuong Kiet’s poem “The Southern Emperor Rules the Southern Land,” there were separate heavenly mandates for the two realms. There were two suns in the sky.

Actually yes the native of Singapore did come from Indonesia Palembang to be exact Here it is from the Spore Tourist Board
During the 14th century, this small but strategically located island earned a new name. According to legend, Sang Nila Utama, a Prince from Palembang (the capital of Srivijaya), was out on a hunting trip when he caught sight of an animal he had never seen before. Taking it to be a good sign, he founded a city where the animal had been spotted, naming it “The Lion City” or Singapura, from the Sanskrit words “simha” (lion) and “pura” (city)
Later the British looking for a seaport to compete with Dutch Melacca decided to lease the island from the Johore Sultanate. Alas, there were not many people there with the skills to build a city, trade, manage the government service etc. What to do? So the colonial government decided to import Chinese as they were already the dominant trade people in the area with the skills to build cities, manage the government service, etc. Not many Europeans want to go there because of the heat, malaria, and primitive conditions.

I don't think Chinese look down on anything Every Chinese knows there is no such thing as pure Han. From the very beginning, China absorbed and incorporated newly conquered land and people not by killing them But by intermarrying and over centuries becoming one nation!

 

[ety]

I didn't say Cai were considered barbarian but Yan and Wu were and Wu's lineage was clearly fabricated. But anyway you can consider someone less civilised but you will not treat them with such hatred if they have the same blood as you. Taiwanese look down on you Chinese but despite that you are blood related so they will always treat you better than they will treat a SEA who they also look down on.

Liu Bang's birthplace was only conquered by Chu for 60 years, that is in no way enough time for Huaxia people to adopt Chu culture, let me emphasise that Chu were DETESTED by Huaxia. Let me ask you again why would Xi Jingping love Vietnamese culture despite Chinese are prejudiced to Vietnamese

First, Xi Jing Ping doesn't love and worship Vietnamese culture as you like to assume. Second, Vietnam is not like Chu to China at the time; Chu people basically only mean people living in the provinces of Hubei and Hunan. Third, for one example, many Taiwanese till today still worship Japanese culture after only 50 years of Japanese colonization, so your argument of only 60 years rule is invalid. Fourth, your US is the most racist country in the world today, and I don't have to say anything more.

 

[Hendarto]

Chuetnic you need to brush up on the history of China and Vietnamese relations. It goes back to Qin time with Zhuo Tao. Here is a refresher of that history This guy is Korean if I am not wrong but he gives a short history of China-Vietnam relations from the beginning very interesting. BTW Vietnamese is an Austroasiatic language. By the time of the warring states period Chu was already Sinized and most likely spoke Old Chinese

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[ety]

Chuetnic you need to brush up on the history of China and Vietnamese relations. It goes back to Qin time with Zhuo Tao. Here is a refresher of that history This guy is Korean if I am not wrong but he gives a short history of China-Vietnam relations from the beginning very interesting. BTW Vietnamese is an Austroasiatic language. By the time of the warring states period Chu was already Sinized and most likely spoke Old Chinese

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Exactly, Chu by the times of Spring and Autumn, and Warring States were readily accepted by other states as a legitimate great power of China at the time, it was accepted and classified as one of 春秋五霸 and one of 战国七雄.

 

[Hendarto]

Here is the real story of the Chu state as told by Chinese historian based on archeological finds fascinating Chuetnic you better watch it excellent program I watch t long time ago but forgot
Part 1

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Part 2

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[chuethnic]

First, Xi Jing Ping doesn't love and worship Vietnamese culture as you like to assume. Second, Vietnam is not like Chu to China at the time; Chu people basically only mean people living in the provinces of Hubei and Hunan. Third, for one example, many Taiwanese till today still worship Japanese culture after only 50 years of Japanese colonization, so your argument of only 60 years rule is invalid. Fourth, your US is the most racist country in the world today, and I don't have to say anything more.

First, wow ety dude, I'm not saying XJP actually loves Vietnamese, I'm posing to you a modern hypothetical equivalent of the Han Emperors loving Chu to show you how ridiculous it is for a ruler of China to associate with a foreign culture that was considered inferior unless he is natively from that culture. Second, yes that is the point, it was specifically people from Hunan that migrated to Vietnam as colonialist. Third, it is not invalid because in ancient times people are more isolated and foreign influence is not so easily transmitted, your Chinese even have the saying mountains are high and the emperor is far away, also modern Japan is a highly developed country with high prestige so Taiwanese desperately want to be associated with them. Chu on the otherhand was considered an uncivilised backwater, it makes no sense for Huaxia people to obsessively associate with such a culture

Exactly, Chu by the times of Spring and Autumn, and Warring States were readily accepted by other states as a legitimate great power of China at the time, it was accepted and classified as one of 春秋五霸 and one of 战国七雄.

China is acknowledged by the West as a major power but that doesn't accept mean they accept you into their club.
沐猴而冠 the men of Chu are just “monkeys who were washed and capped
南蛮鴃舌 used by Mencius to ridicule Xu Xing , a Chu native

 

[chuethnic]

Actually yes the native of Singapore did come from Indonesia Palembang to be exact Here it is from the Spore Tourist Board
During the 14th century, this small but strategically located island earned a new name. According to legend, Sang Nila Utama, a Prince from Palembang (the capital of Srivijaya), was out on a hunting trip when he caught sight of an animal he had never seen before. Taking it to be a good sign, he founded a city where the animal had been spotted, naming it “The Lion City” or Singapura, from the Sanskrit words “simha” (lion) and “pura” (city)
Later the British looking for a seaport to compete with Dutch Melacca decided to lease the island from the Johore Sultanate. Alas, there were not many people there with the skills to build a city, trade, manage the government service etc. What to do? So the colonial government decided to import Chinese as they were already the dominant trade people in the area with the skills to build cities, manage the government service, etc. Not many Europeans want to go there because of the heat, malaria, and primitive conditions.

I don't think Chinese look down on anything Every Chinese knows there is no such thing as pure Han. From the very beginning, China absorbed and incorporated newly conquered land and people not by killing them But by intermarrying and over centuries becoming one nation!

I mean Chinese Singaporeans not Malays and the Chinese look down on each other nevermind foreigners

Chuetnic you need to brush up on the history of China and Vietnamese relations. It goes back to Qin time with Zhuo Tao. Here is a refresher of that history This guy is Korean if I am not wrong but he gives a short history of China-Vietnam relations from the beginning very interesting. BTW Vietnamese is an Austroasiatic language. By the time of the warring states period Chu was already Sinized and most likely spoke Old Chinese

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Your video title says 'Domination', for Vietnam to be dominated don't you think people from China needed to move and settle there? Where in China did those people come from?

About the language
the word Chu has an AA root

楚 - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

the word for “child” in the Chu language was something like /koːn/ (written as “觀”), which was a cognate with Vietnamese con
Chu language was full of AA words
https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/33979260

Here is the real story of the Chu state as told by Chinese historian based on archeological finds fascinating Chuetnic you better watch it excellent program I watch t long time ago but forgot
Part 1

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Part 2

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I already saw it, I had a good laugh everytime the Chinese commentators started speaking because of their hilarious agenda. You should watch this

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[ety]

First, wow ety dude, I'm not saying XJP actually loves Vietnamese, I'm posing to you a modern hypothetical equivalent of the Han Emperors loving Chu to show you how ridiculous it is for a ruler of China to associate with a foreign culture that was considered inferior unless he is natively from that culture. Second, yes that is the point, it was specifically people from Hunan that migrated to Vietnam as colonialist. Third, it is not invalid because in ancient times people are more isolated and foreign influence is not so easily transmitted, your Chinese even have the saying mountains are high and the emperor is far away, also modern Japan is a highly developed country with high prestige so Taiwanese desperately want to be associated with them. Chu on the otherhand was considered an uncivilised backwater, it makes no sense for Huaxia people to obsessively associate with such a culture

China is acknowledged by the West as a major power but that doesn't accept mean they accept you into their club.
沐猴而冠 the men of Chu are just “monkeys who were washed and capped
南蛮鴃舌 used by Mencius to ridicule Xu Xing , a Chu native

It's your speculation that Vietnamese came from Hunan. There is no evidence except you come up with couple of Chinese significant characters about Hunan sound similar to Vietnamese, that might just be coincidence, you know Chinese characters only have 400 different sounds. so there are many Chinese characters out of total of over 50000 with the same or similar sounds. There is lots of evidence and historical records saying that Cantonese and Vietnamese are related, they both are called Yue or Viet in Chinese 越 people, but different branches.

No, Chinese including Taiwanese used to think the Japanese as barbarians (倭人）at the time Japan invaded Taiwan and seized it, the Taiwanese didn't want to be part of Japan, they fought fearless against the Japanese army, in the first years Japanese conquest of Taiwan, they actually killed close to 500000 Taiwanese. It's later after colonization, the Taiwanese got brainwashed and began to worship the Japanese.

Of course, 60 years is enough to install cultures or practices on two or three generations of the conquered land even in ancient times, no excuse here ! There is no evidence or historical records saying that Liu Bang's ancestors came from Hubei, Hunan or the Chu army. It's accepted that Liu Bang's family lived in the North Jiangsu 市丰县 or North China plain.

"刘邦的家族最早是晋国的, 遇上三家分晋后,他们便跟随魏国人来到了沛丰。刘邦爷爷是被魏国封过爵位的。从认同上早期刘邦是偏向魏国，因为沛丰那时候虽然在楚国治下，但是认同完全是魏国，甚至还有完全独立于楚国体系的结社小团体，刘邦年轻的时候也非常崇拜魏国信陵君。这方面是有一系列佐证的。后来丰邑父老跟随雍齿反叛自己依附魏国的时候刘邦是异常愤怒，但可能也是因为这样他最后对自己汉王的认同就高于魏国了。"

"西汉开国核心群体多楚人直接导致汉代服饰受到楚风影响。"（论文参考：《论楚文化对汉初服饰之影响_王珺英》）

《汉书·高帝纪》的“赞”中写道：涉魏而东，遂为丰公。丰公，盖太上皇父。

刘邦祖上原来就是个大忽悠, 一封信就把秦晋两国都玩的团团转

这一着急就找士会商量，士会很聪明，他认为：两国对峙，不打一仗肯定不行，但如果长期消耗下去，即便取得胜利，付出的代价也太大，以秦国的国力，可能会多少年都缓不过来，综合这两种因素考虑，可以胜一仗以立威，出了令狐之…

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