The possible ways of action of the Egyptian army in an initiated war against Israel

[ziaulislam]

I doubt the PAF would think so, considering they operated them without for several years not knowing whether they would get them. Isn't that interesting?



Congratulations, that's wonderful I'm happy for the PAF. Like I said, though, this ain't no dick-measuring contest.



Not to belittle that great accomplishment, but let's not get carried away. 20km average distance of a kill by an F-16 B/MLU (twin-seat) with AIM-120C-5 against a MiG-21 Bison with R-37 is not exactly record-shattering. Again, not trying to belittle or be disrespectful I know how you fellas are super proud of that event and rightfully so, but it's not man the moon landing.



If that's what you think, then I pity you for your lack of knowledge. But I know better that you know better and this is just "poking the bear".....



Thank you for that priceless advice. I really hope the EAF is reading this ATM they can truly learn a lot from you. Amazing! Thank you so much.


You should write a book. This is tremendous stuff.



I'm speechless.

Paf acquired the f16s in 1970s ...BVR wasn't an equation back then.

The question arised in 1990s when we were undersantion. F 16 couldn't simply being out out of service could they be


But as you rightly said PAF didn't wanted to get additional f16s or MLU project without aim120..the project was tied to aim 120.

Lol really tells us how little you know how BVR ranges work. I mean this is astonishing from someone who has been on this forum for so long I'm dumfounded

No need to write a book... We already know how Israel can strike anywhere in the Arab world that it wants and f16s are only their to supress people at cario square, after all one country decides what the f16s get

 

[GoMig-21]

Lol really tells us how little you know how BVR ranges work. I mean this is astonishing from someone who has been on this forum for so long I'm dumfounded

LOL "On this forum!!" Believe me when I tell you there are many other forums and actual means where one can get accurate information from real military personnel where there is serious technical discussions and opportunities than this place.

While it's fun to be on this board and to read non-sensical wishful wet dreams from the likes of yourself (especially with your particular bias against certain Arab nations), and there is a certain level of accurate technical information, it's still mostly a place to pass the time.

No need to write a book... We already know how Israel can strike anywhere in the Arab world that it wants and f16s are only their to supress people at cario square, after all one country decides what the f16s get

Yep, ok.

 

[Persian Gulf]

Currently, Egypt, like any small Persian country, is a client of Israel across the two countries

 

[arjunk]

Outside of China, it's the PL-15E (export version) which has a "claimed" range of 145 km. Sorry to say, that is not the equivalent to the AIM-260. Still an absolute beast but for us diehards, we need to see more to be 100% convinced of its effectiveness. Even testing results or anything. Chinese are not very forthcoming with that, unfortunately. We know a lot about US & Russian missiles, so it would help to see more from China.

From my understanding, the block 3 was supposed be inducted into service this past month, right? Has it and is it IOC already? Just curious because that's great news.

My post which was in reply to @KingQamaR 's comment that the EAF F-16 blk 52s "are almost useless". This is the comment:



Not even just as an Egyptian, but as a military enthusiast who always tries to be as objective and as accurate about understanding all systems of interest, hearing this repetitive -- and frankly unfounded -- criticism of Egyptian F-16s is not only disheartening, but aggravating also lol. Because it couldn't be further from the truth. Not everything that qualifies a good & capable fighter is based on solely having an active homing beyond visual range A2A missile of 100 - 200 kilometers.

Hence the comparison to PAF aircraft that also don't have that particular capability - mainly the F-16s other than the 24 blk 52s and like I mentioned from what I know, the 12-16 or so A/B blk 30? But also, the others that don't carry anything equivalent such as the Mirages & JF-17s besides the block 3 which I wasn't sure if that's already in service. Either way, the point was that they are not useless.

Certainly not a dick-measuring contest!



You sure about that? Most "unbiased" sources state the skirmish was within 7km - 10km, to which I figured to give it 20km just to be fair. That event is mired with biased claims from both sides TBH. Hard to tell who's right or wrong so I go with the middle lol. Either way, it doesn't make the EAF F-16s 52s almost useless. I'm sure you would agree to that.



Simplification of possible results from BVR distances is a common mistake. I don't put much stock in a simplistic scenario as such since it's much more complicated.

And you're right, let's not get started with the F35I. Are we assuming that the only way to deal with the F-35I is having the AIM-120? Or that the Egyptian military is stupid or incompetent and doesn't have or train on various other methods & tactics and has other equipment to deal with that? Radar surveillance and air defense infrastructure at various & numerous strategic locations as well as other means? Of course it does. Having an equal aerial counter to a particular threat is not the only way to defeat that threat.

It's very much possible Egyptian military is training under the assumption EAF will be destroyed. It's not an insult to Egypt, bro. We in Pakistan were preparing to go to war with the United States after 9/11. PAF had no BVR and straight up told President Musharraf that it would be destroyed within 3 hours of a war with America.

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

Besides, the next batch of 30 Rafales are "supposed to" include the Meteor and MICA-NG with which would include arming the current Rafales with them as well. the brass from the bottom all the way up to the top of the chain are pushing very hard to include the same AMRAAM with a possible batch of 24 Eurofighter Typhoons. Weather any of this stuff happens or not, at least they're trying. If it wasn't for the power of the zionist lobby worldwide but particularly with the US, we wouldn't be in these shoe

54 BVR armed 4-4.5 gen fighters, while respectable, is simply not enough to gain air superiority against Israel. Unless Rafales and Eurofighters have a massive EW advantage over Israeli systems.

Egypt's objectives are structured in a solid and comprehensive defensive posture. As I explained earlier in this thread, 90% of Egypt's military doctrine is centered around a specific defensive structure that has many elements working together. It's geared towards thwarting a zionist intrusion into Sinai, protecting vital infrastructure assets all around Egypt (Aswan dam, military assets such as bases etc.), critical HQs and counterterrorism etc. All the current military assets meet those needs. We're not too worried.

What anti-stealth radars does egypt posses to counter F-35? What SAM does Egypt have to counter Israeli tactical ballistic missiles and low flying Popeye missiles? What if Israeli agents launch drones from within Egypt, as they did in Iran?

 

[ziaulislam]

LOL "On this forum!!" Believe me when I tell you there are many other forums and actual means where one can get accurate information from real military personnel where there is serious technical discussions and opportunities than this place.

While it's fun to be on this board and to read non-sensical wishful wet dreams from the likes of yourself (especially with your particular bias against certain Arab nations), and there is a certain level of accurate technical information, it's still mostly a place to pass the time.



Yep, ok.

You have no idea what no escape ranges are and what and how BVR works

Basically a big LOL

Stick with the aim7 BVR lol..no wonder how are several times inferior adversy did This amount of thrashing in 1960-1970s..I thought the rumours of more training by deputies from Pakistan and rest of world were just rumours but I guess it was not only that but an attitude problem as well

 

[GoMig-21]

It's very much possible Egyptian military is training under the assumption EAF will be destroyed. It's not an insult to Egypt, bro.

Agreed. This is constructive dialogue with good counter points worthy of engaging.

Even if it's constructive criticism, it's perfectly fine I have no problem with that.

I don't think the Egyptian military is training under the assumption that its entire air force will be destroyed. There are several reasons for that: mainly that it's not 1967 in more ways than one & the unpreparedness the Egyptian military was at back then compared to how it is now is night & day, the complete opposite. The technology, equipment, procedures and training are on a monumentally different level now than they were back in 1967.

And again, the BVR aspect is not the be-all end-all in modern warfare. Contrary to what some who are blindly enamored by beyond visual range munitions believe, the fact is there are many other "uninteresting" and "not so fancy" aspects that determine success or failure on the battlefield in modern day warfare. But because they're not romanticized so much like BVR munitions are, they get lost and ignored in the shuffle to the point where these people become obsessed & narrow-mindedly focused on BVR. And let's not forget, Egypt is not without BVR anyway. So, in a sense that argument is almost moot and instead of the enemy having complete domination or air superiority, the much more relevant question to ask is how would Egypt successfully defend itself with what it has? That would be the relevant question in this case.

Making absolute assumptions one way or the other is not only wrong, but it's also void of any ground realities and substance.

There's also the issue of the thread title; An initiated war by Egypt. That is completely different than Egypt defending itself against belligerence from the enemy. All my first half-dozen posts on this thread were just explaining to others that initiating a war with the zionist entity is not on Egypt's agenda. That's a very important factor even when discussing the BVR aspect.

There's a general rule of thumb in war I'm sure you're aware of it's about as simplistic as can be and far from Sun Tzu's detailed Art of War disciplines and that is the attacking party must have 3x the power of the defending party in order to succeed. This is aptly relevant in this case as Egypt has an ENORMOUS army & military and A LOT of equipment from air power, armor & navy. We're not talking about some slouch central African tribe with spears and machetes, here. Attacking it is not as easy as some might think.

I'm only writing all of this so it reminds anyone else reading that the scenario we're talking about is Egypt defending itself and not mounting an offensive war into occupied Palestine. And 90% of Egypt's military structure & doctrine is geared towards a defensive posture, not an offensive one.

54 BVR armed 4-4.5 gen fighters, while respectable, is simply not enough to gain air superiority against Israel. Unless Rafales and Eurofighters have a massive EW advantage over Israeli systems.

I agree. We don't have any Eurofighters (not yet at least) but the Rafales can certainly hold their own as far as EW is concerned and by the end of the year, the new batch should be in full delivery mode. Some of the fellas are saying the Meteor is included with these, I'm a little skeptical about that but would be more than happy to be proven wrong if not for the actual capability itself, but just so that the masses would finally STFU about BVR lol.

You see, even if the EAF let's say had 500 AIM-120s like Pakistan got in its order, I guarantee you the culprits will be saying "oh that ain't enough against the zionist!" or "yeah but I bet they're degraded AIM-120s and will fall from the sky after 50km waaaahhnn!" lol I'm telling you, it's a strange disease and no cure in site ATM.

Remember the whole "F-16 disabling switch" plague? How the US has a top secret disabling switch that sends a virus to all F-16s that would shut off their engines and they'd all fall from the sky? Maybe there were UFO's also who knows, but that was awesome. Did PAF also get some of that? lol

What anti-stealth radars does egypt posses to counter F-35? What SAM does Egypt have to counter Israeli tactical ballistic missiles and low flying Popeye missiles? What if Israeli agents launch drones from within Egypt, as they did in Iran?

I shall return a bit later with a complete list of the defensive equipment from long-distance anti-stealth Radars and SAMs and UAVs & UCAVc and ECM, EW units and the underground HQ installations and more to answer that question.

 

[UKBengali]

Remember the whole "F-16 disabling switch" plague? How the US has a top secret disabling switch that sends a virus to all F-16s that would shut off their engines and they'd all fall from the sky? Maybe there were UFO's also who knows, but that was awesome. Did PAF also get some of that? lol

US may be able to supply the entity with codes to blind the radars on Eyptian F-16s.

Anyway the peace treaty that Egypt signed acknowledged the total military superiority of the entity over Egypt. That aid and US not politically and economicall destabilising Egypt comes at a cost.

Now if Egypt was to become one of the first export customers of Chinese J-31s then there would fireworks!

 

[GoMig-21]

US may be able to supply the entity with codes to blind the radars on Eyptian F-16s.

Let's assume they 'do' supply them and they 'can' blind Egyptian F-16 radars, could you elaborate on the technical aspect of how that can be done? What codes? How would they use codes to blind or disable the EAF's AN/APG-68? Not trying to put you on the spot, just determining the feasibility of such a thing.

Anyway the peace treaty that Egypt signed acknowledged the total military superiority of the entity over Egypt.

The QME. The US's disgusting support of zionist entity. I say "disgusting" because it's hurting the US. It doesn't benefit it in any meaningful way.

Everyone in the region who is somewhat allied with the US is subjected to that. It's just there are degrees of it and Egypt has the harshest one, yet we've still managed to keep them constantly soiling themselves with anxiety and worry.

Now if Egypt was to become one of the first export customers of Chinese J-31s then there would fireworks!

I hate to say this since it might ruffle some feathers, but no one has any idea how comparable Chinese equipment is to western stuff. Maybe if and when (God forbid) another clash pops up between Pakistan and India and we see the J-10C in action and we have concrete results of its radar performance, its missiles performance, its EW performance etc., then we can say for sure. Or even a US -China clash in the SCS or something, that would help me at least be convinced.

 

[KingQamaR]

The F-16 had three operating modes, Mode 1, Mode 2 and Mode 3. Mode 3 is only used for war and all modes sit behind a code you have to enter to turn on those functionalities. All F-16 only turn on Mode 2 functionalities as to prevent enemies from gathering electronic data on the full functionality of the radar in mode 3.

And do countries like Pakistan & Egypt have restricted modes?

 

[UKBengali]

Let's assume they 'do' supply them and they 'can' blind Egyptian F-16 radars, could you elaborate on the technical aspect of how that can be done? What codes? How would they use codes to blind or disable the EAF's AN/APG-68? Not trying to put you on the spot, just determining the feasibility of such a thing.



The QME. The US's disgusting support of zionist entity. I say "disgusting" because it's hurting the US. It doesn't benefit it in any meaningful way.

Everyone in the region who is somewhat allied with the US is subjected to that. It's just there are degrees of it and Egypt has the harshest one, yet we've still managed to keep them constantly soiling themselves with anxiety and worry.



I hate to say this since it might ruffle some feathers, but no one has any idea how comparable Chinese equipment is to western stuff. Maybe if and when (God forbid) another clash pops up between Pakistan and India and we see the J-10C in action and we have concrete results of its radar performance, its missiles performance, its EW performance etc., then we can say for sure. Or even a US -China clash in the SCS or something, that would help me at least be convinced.

I cannot be sure if this "feature" was put into the Egyptian F-16s but it could be done. Would be very simple to have a database of codes stored in the Egyptian F-16 radar and then this could be integrated into the "Friend or Foe" technology and so Zionist warplanes would be considered "friendly" and the APG-68 radar would not be able to lock onto them.


As for Chinese military technology, well the Turks all the way back in 2013 wanted to buy Chinese HQ-9 long range SAM system, as in trials it beat the latest Patriot systems in terms of probability of hit among other reasons like cost and transfer of technology. Know it is not the same as a figher plane but long-range SAMs are one of the most complex military technologies to develop and it shows China is at world-level in terms of electronics, radar and missile technology. Of course Chinese in relative terms are catching up with the US every year as it is easier to catch up then push the boundaries of technology.

I would guess that as J-31 is the 2nd 5th generation fighter that China is developing after J-20 then it would probably be at least decent for the generation level it is. Anyway it would be a fair bit superior than the Rafales even with the Meteor missile as it has stealth technology and would be able to supercruise at much higher Mach-1 speeds than the French fighter due to dual WS-19 10kT engines that may already have been flight tested last year.

 

[GoMig-21]

I cannot be sure if this "feature" was put into the Egyptian F-16s but it could be done. Would be very simple to have a database of codes stored in the Egyptian F-16 radar and then this could be integrated into the "Friend or Foe" technology and so Zionist warplanes would be considered "friendly" and the APG-68 radar would not be able to lock onto them.

Funny you said that! We were discussing IFF on the IRIAF thread and I posted a similar scenario which was if the technology has evolved enough to be able to trick a requested IFF from an enemy into thinking you're a friendly so you can surprise him with an early kill shot. And here you are proposing the same scenario except to defeat a possible lock on! lol. Talk about coincidence.

Typically, IFF technology is designed specifically so that scenario you're proposing doesn't happen or couldn't happen. Particularly the purposeful structuring of the return signals to trick the IFF system into thinking the unknown entity is a friendly and not an adversary, when it should come up as "unknown". In your proposed case, you still have to trick the IFF system prior to manipulating the radar not to lock-on a particular target. Problem is, as IFF is designed to operate, that's impossible because of encryption.

• Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) Interrogators are electronic devices that emit an “interrogating” radio signal at one frequency, prompting an IFF Transponder to emit a reply signal at a different frequency, indicating that an approaching aircraft is “friendly.”

With that in mind comes this part:

• Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) Cryptographic Computers encrypt signals being sent by IFF Interrogators and encodes replies from corresponding Transponders. This makes it difficult for adversaries to steal identification codes to imitate friendly aircraft for executing surprise attacks.

Both the sent interrogator signals and return responder signals (which are on different frequencies) are encrypted which would make it almost impossible to manipulate the return signal to be identified specifically as a friendly just by virtue of the return signal being encrypted and on a different radio frequency than the initiated interrogator.

Another thing to consider is that the EAF operates its own IFF system separate from the standard AN/APG-68 radar's IFF system because of its diverse fleet of aircraft. So in order to integrate for example the MiG-29Ms with the F-16s & Rafales, they created a secure (C5I) network called RCIS-2 which is now RCIS-3 and constantly evolving as they're working on 4 now. This system was developed as a result of the Rafale coming to Egypt.

Here is a good description of it and how the Egyptian Rafale with its Link-16 influenced the creation of this network system if you're interested.

US, European Fighters in Mideast Share ISR Data Well​

Even if let's say your theory is plausible, if war ever broke out with the zionist or any other entity, they wouldn't even use the built-in IFF system. The EAF -- and Egyptian Military in general -- is VERY paranoid lol about outside influences particlarly because of the US/Israel bond that they go out of their way not to get caught in any scenario that could be sabotaged by the US in favor of the zios.

Also, not sure if you're aware of this incident that happened about 10 years ago or so when an EAF F-16 was patrolling the Sinai and then flew into Israeli air space and lingered long enough to watch the zionist scramble one of their F-15s to intercept it. By the time the F-15 got anywhere near the border, EAF F-16 had scrambled out of there. Zionists were up in arms and all bent out of shape. They figured it was a spying mission to collect intel on their reaction time. Works both ways I guess.

There's also the liability problem for the US with something like kill switches and even IFF codes passed onto preferred allies. If anything of the sort should ever be discovered and made public, it would ruin the manufacturers' reputations as well as the US' and make a lot of its prospective weapons customers very apprehensive about purchasing advanced US platforms & systems. A USA F-15 pilot once told me that when I asked him what he thought about a kill switch being in Egyptian or even Pakistani or whomever jets.
Sorry for the long post. A lot of info to cover.

 

[arjunk]

The F-16 had three operating modes, Mode 1, Mode 2 and Mode 3. Mode 3 is only used for war and all modes sit behind a code you have to enter to turn on those functionalities. All F-16 only turn on Mode 2 functionalities as to prevent enemies from gathering electronic data on the full functionality of the radar in mode 3.

And do countries like Pakistan & Egypt have restricted modes?

F-16 has master arm switch between simulate and arm, same as every fighter jet. Block 52 has a nuclear consent switch but it is inoperable for Pakistani models

 

[arjunk]

There's also the liability problem for the US with something like kill switches and even IFF codes passed onto preferred allies. If anything of the sort should ever be discovered and made public, it would ruin the manufacturers' reputations as well as the US' and make a lot of its prospective weapons customers very apprehensive about purchasing advanced US platforms & systems. A USA F-15 pilot once told me that when I asked him what he thought about a kill switch being in Egyptian or even Pakistani or whomever jets.
Sorry for the long post. A lot of info to cover.

They're no kill switches but American personnel are watching all F-16s in Pakistan. The cool ones rejoice and share sweets when Indian jets go down. The geeks accuse us of turning Harpoons into nuclear missiles.

 

[GoMig-21]

They're no kill switches but American personnel are watching all F-16s in Pakistan. The cool ones rejoice and share sweets when Indian jets go down.

Of course, lol. Because it was an American-built fighter that shot a Russian one (even though the Bison is built in India), it's still symbolic to them, punks!

Same with EAF F-16s. There are periodic US military inspections but constant watching which is what got us in trouble when we gave a Chinese delegation a tour of one of our F-16s. Not a smart move by us lol, but Killary went ballistic when she found out and that created major tensions between Egypt and the US during the Obama administration. I believe that was the main drive that forced Egypt to sign the CISMOA Treaty with the US for non-transferable advanced US technologies to a 3rd party.

Originally, they claimed that was the primary reason for the denial of the AIM-120 because of the word "Advanced" in the missile's description. But everyone knew it was because of the zionists trembling & shaking from fear and the US' insistence on maintaining the zionists' QME. Hence the signing of the treaty had minimal fruits for Egypt as far as acquiring advanced weapons from the US.

F-16 has master arm switch between simulate and arm, same as every fighter jet. Block 52 has a nuclear consent switch but it is inoperable for Pakistani models

Sounds familiar. Which is why your Mirage fleet is very important since it's the designated nuclear delivery aircraft, right? Besides the other methods you guys have to deliver those payloads, what will become the aerial replacement for that duty once the deltas are retired, which seems to be very soon, right?

And speaking of watching & nukes, I can only imagine what the US was conducting in and over Pakistan during the WOT to spy on Pakistan's nuclear status, considering the access they had through the deal they made with Pakistan to access Afghanistan. I remember reading an article in USA Today about a surveillance mission by either the CIA or whomever which mentioned they had spotted a van the Pakistani military was using to constantly move some of its smaller nukes from one place to the other to keep "people" guessing lol! I thought that was so crazy it had Hollywood written all over it. But hard to doubt it since they're capable of much worse than that type of intel spying.

 

[arjunk]

And speaking of watching & nukes, I can only imagine what the US was conducting in and over Pakistan during the WOT to spy on Pakistan's nuclear status, considering the access they had through the deal they made with Pakistan to access Afghanistan. I remember reading an article in USA Today about a surveillance mission by either the CIA or whomever which mentioned they had spotted a van the Pakistani military was using to constantly move some of its smaller nukes from one place to the other to keep "people" guessing lol! I thought that was so crazy it had Hollywood written all over it. But hard to doubt it since they're capable of much worse than that type of intel spying.

We saw constant RQ-170/180, satellite, radio, phone surveillance, on levels not seen since the cold war.