Turkish Air Force | News & Discussions

[MMM-E]

I think it is silly continue to propagate the theory that Russian IAD systems like the S300/S400 are effective, where in every theatre of military conflict they have been involved in recently like Iran, India, Ukraine, they have been proven to be ineffective.

S400s shot down dozens of Fighter Jets in Ukraine including F-16s

and S-400 has the longest range kill record in the World
We prefer S400 ( 240-380 km ) instead of 100-120 km SAMP-T or 160 km PATRIOT


AWACs can not fly over the Aegean because of S400s
if S400 is ineffective then go and fly with AWACs over the Aegean in a conflict then see what will happen


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What you've said about S400 is similar to the same situation.
The propaganda of RAFALE and SPECTRA has been killed by Pakistan

 

[Foinikas]

S400s shot down dozens of Fighter Jets in Ukraine including F-16s

Confirmed "dozens" or just a couple confirmed and all the rest is Russian talk?

 

[Foinikas]

The propaganda of RAFALE and SPECTRA has been killed by Pakistan

Different Air Force.

Egyptians and Syrians with a Mig-21 would be mediocre. Pakistanis and Koreans would make it work. Was it the aircraft's fault or the pilot training and/or mentality's?

 

[MMM-E]

SIPER Air Defense System will be more dangerous than S400 in a conflict


S-400 works in stand alone mode

But SIPER to work with network centric warfare and cooperative engagement capabilities


Ground based Radars can not detect low flying Fighter Jets at long distances

But Boeing E-7T AEWCs can detect the RAFALE and F-16V from 350 km and to guide SIPER Block-2/3 Air Defense Missiles via link-16 data link to hit RAFALEs and F-16Vs from 150-250 km away

SIPER Missile links to higher command via tactical data links (Link-16, JREAP-C)


And S-400s will be enough to block AWACS over the Aegean

 

[Foinikas]

And S-400s will be enough to block AWACS over the Aegean

Yes,according to your posts the last 4 years,everything is "enough to block" whatever any country has. Greece,Egypt,Iran,France,Israel. The problem is that you always take the best scenario for your side and never the worst. Everything will work,everything will hit, everything will be peaches and cream.

 

[MMM-E]

Yes,according to your posts the last 4 years,everything is "enough to block" whatever any country has. Greece,Egypt,Iran,France,Israel. The problem is that you always take the best scenario for your side and never the worst. Everything will work,everything will hit, everything will be peaches and cream.

Greece lack this capability to say anything for the best or worst senario

İn Western World has NO any System to match with the S400 to block AWACs

French-Italy : 100-120 km SAMP-T
USA : 160 km PATRIOT
Russia : 380 km S400

And Turkiye will not allow AWACS to fly in the Aegean with S400s.
This is a great advantage.

 

[Eşbah]

I think it is silly continue to propagate the theory that Russian IAD systems like the S300/S400 are effective, where in every theatre of military conflict they have been involved in recently like Iran, India, Ukraine, they have been proven to be ineffective.

THAAD, Patriot, IRIS-T, Arrow all can point effective utilisation in combat. Where is the combat record of the S300/400? It list of victories? It has had enough opportunity to establish a record, but that list of valour is lacking. HQ-9 right now is an unknown as it has not seen any extensive combat use, that is all that can be said about this system right now.

Appreciate, Türkiye may feel the need to talk up a system that they invested so much in both financially and politically, and therefore the sensitivity around the issue, but the combat record of Russian IADS systems doesn't really stand up to well to scrutiny.

No weapon is perfect, not even American and Israeli systems. The point is that these ADs need to be continously getting updated. If not, they will fail without a doubt. Happening in Ukraine right now:

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[hyperman]

I think it is silly continue to propagate the theory that Russian IAD systems like the S300/S400 are effective, where in every theatre of military conflict they have been involved in recently like Iran, India, Ukraine, they have been proven to be ineffective.

THAAD, Patriot, IRIS-T, Arrow all can point effective utilisation in combat. Where is the combat record of the S300/400? It list of victories? It has had enough opportunity to establish a record, but that list of valour is lacking. HQ-9 right now is an unknown as it has not seen any extensive combat use, that is all that can be said about this system right now.

Appreciate, Türkiye may feel the need to talk up a system that they invested so much in both financially and politically, and therefore the sensitivity around the issue, but the combat record of Russian IADS systems doesn't really stand up to well to scrutiny.

No this incorrect. I have seen Russian neutralize Patriot Batteries, as well as IRIS-T batteries in Ukraine.

I have seen things get through against Arrow and THAAD batteries. i have seen things get through HQ-9 batteries.

What is the criterion for the S-400? that renders it ineffective but those systems effective. This is foolish.

If your only determinant is "feels" and watching clips where once in a while a part of the S-400 system is hit or a missile or drone gets through and hits russia. Then sorry but that not an effective criterion to measure, b/c similar things can be shown elsewhere. And all those things are dependent on a wide multitude of operational matters.

The effectiveness of a system is dependent on a wide variety of things, based on what the other side has, the geography, how close one can get to the systems deployed(are you neutralizing them via long range or can you get closer), the EW environment, and amount of mass you can dedicate. SEAD missions its facing, Anti Radiation assets, Networked Warfare via assets deployed(AWACS and other sensors integrated in the kill chain), etc etc.

 

[MMM-E]

West has nothing,only Russia. Eeey Ali Baba...

Stop trolling
Nobody said West has nothing

The West has NO any System to match with the S400 to block AWACS

Your Greece has NO capability to block AWACS
160 km PATRIOT can not block AWACS but 380 km S400 can do it

 

[Foinikas]

Stop trolling
Nobody said West has nothing

The West has NO any System to match with the S400 to block AWACS

Your Greece has NO capability to block AWACS
160 km PATRIOT can not block AWACS but 380 km S400 can do it

Your bullshit bragging asks for similar replies. You keep busting our balls all day "380 km S-400! 380 km S-400!" While I just showed you S-400 got smashed numerous times in Ukraine and still talk as if it's an invincible system that cannot be defeated on the battlefield.

 

[hyperman]

and still talk as if it's an invincible system that cannot be defeated on the battlefield.

Which system is invincible?

Its like saying the Leopard tank sucks b/c you saw it blown up on the battlefield, or if an F-16 or Rafale gets shot down its a bad plane.

Your criterion needs to be more sophisticated foiny, beyond oh look here a component was destroyed or here look a missile got through. lol

 

[Foinikas]

Which system is invincible?

Its like saying the Leopard tank sucks b/c you saw it blown up on the battlefield, or if an F-16 or Rafale gets shot down its a bad plane.

Your criterion needs to be more sophisticated foiny, beyond oh look here a component was destroyed or here look a missile got through. lol

Tell that to your compatriot who talks about the S-400 as if it's a monolith. Not me.

 

[hyperman]

Tell that to your compatriot who talks about the S-400 as if it's a monolith. Not me.

He is largely right in his assessment with regards to the capabilities of the S-400 system.

Some of you are mistakes that b/c an Air Defense System is Western, that its somehow better.

There are many things that the west builds that are better than Russia, but SAM Air Defense is one of Russia's specialties, their doctrine is centered around air defense via SAM systems, whereas the Western Air Defense is Air Force based and offensive minded not defensive minded.

The US for the most part never really developed Air Defense outside of times where they needed anti ballistic missile defense. B/c the US has had a luxury of having a seperation of 2 oceans from any peer adversary.

The Russians out of necessity invested tons into Ground based air defense.

Where the Russians do lack is Networked Warfare compared to combined arms the US does. But as standalone systems the Russian Air Defenses are are as good as any or better. The S-400 infact is a more capable System than the Patriot. In the range and layers it covers as well as the amount of specialized sensors involved in the system and the variance of interceptor missiles.

 

[Foinikas]

The Russians out of necessity invested tons into Ground based air defense.

That sounds like me 15 years ago. Then I grew up a bit. I was fooled by the Russian hype. Then S-300s and Pantsir started being destroyed a bit more easily. Then we reached Ukraine. S-400s rarely used and on the contrary destroyed in high rates.

 

[hyperman]

That sounds like me 15 years ago. Then I grew up a bit. I was fooled by the Russian hype. Then S-300s and Pantsir started being destroyed a bit more easily. Then we reached Ukraine. S-400s rarely used and on the contrary destroyed in high rates.

Foinikas in the US air force was at the level of Russia and it was fighting Ukraine on its border, we would see similar things.

This isn't a matter of oh the Russians are not as advanced as the Americans or the Europeans in their Air Defense, its a matter of the limitations of a Ground based air defense.

The issue here isn't that their system sucks, its that they don't have the other pieces and their geography is something else completely.

In terms of Geography, the United States won the lottery essentially. With a puppet state it controls up north, a psuedo vassal state it has immense influence over to the south, and separated by two massive oceans.

The only way realistically to hit the mainland is over oceans with ICBMs of from the south from Mexico.

Take that element into account. As well as the Naval assets and Air force heavy strategy, and the foes it fights.