Turkish Land Forces | News & Discussions

[Anatolian]

Thats from GPS spoofing. If you create a Smart munition based on Inertial navigation and course correction, that would get around that issue.

Wouldn't that also increase the price of each round, in which case simply investing into loitering and suicide drones seems more cost-effective. I just dont see the appeal in a large scale application for this, seems like something only America with its bloated military budget can really afford to wield in enough numbers where it matters.

 

[Anatolian]

After the Altay Tank is being produced with the BATU Powerpack, i think Turkey should set a requirement for all future Land System Acquisitions to be completely domestically manufactured with domestic supply chains.

There are quite a few currently that have subcomponents that are being bought off the shelf from the outside, namely powerpacks. But this can be a significant liability in a Hot war, as we are seeing in Russia where to deal with Attrition of equiptment Russia needs to procure more, but is running into bottlenecks in production due to the design of the platforms have subcomponents that need to be sourced from the outside, and being met with huge embargoes. hurting production and having to rely on older equipment that was decommissioned.

The powerpacks are already nearing the end of their development stage, and I think most Turks would probably agree with creating a system and platform that is sanction proof. But I think the first thing that should be done after Altay is produced is actually develop the Altay further. That tank has been sitting on the shelf for a decade or so, and is no longer cutting edge. I actually think the biggest problem we face at the moment is not embargoed components anymore but rather production capacity.

 

[hyperman]

Wouldn't that also increase the price of each round, in which case simply investing into loitering and suicide drones seems more cost-effective. I just dont see the appeal in a large scale application for this, seems like something only America with its bloated military budget can really afford to wield in enough numbers where it matters.

yes, but suicide drones can also be jammed. You are right perhaps the shell may become non cost effective if they have to account for several countermeasures like GPS spoofing.

The excalibur shell is still very useful, I guess not in every environment. Every tech has a limitation. The accuracy of these shells for the precision strike is amazing though. the amount of damage to cost in a non GPS spoofed environment is decent. they are cheaper than an airstrike and far quicker in terms of reaction timing. Lets say a small tactical recon drone notices movement somewhere on the Turkish border, it tags the gps location and relays it back and within minutes you have a shell launching from 50 miles away from a Firtina and hitting the target in a significant strike. Way cheaper than sending a f-16 or even a tb2 for a strike. Small FPV drones aren't going to do the damage a shell will do, and for a drone with a big enough warhead to be launched, thats going to cost more than the shell. It has its uses, its just not the perfect weapon for every situation. The point is to have options available and being able to choose.

In the excalibur scenario a small artillary team from the army can carry out the strike on their own without any coordination from the air force managing drones or fighter jets.

 

[hyperman]

The powerpacks are already nearing the end of their development stage, and I think most Turks would probably agree with creating a system and platform that is sanction proof. But I think the first thing that should be done after Altay is produced is actually develop the Altay further. That tank has been sitting on the shelf for a decade or so, and is no longer cutting edge. I actually think the biggest problem we face at the moment is not embargoed components anymore but rather production capacity.

The tank has been getting upgrades from Aselsan and Rocketsan, it hasn't been sitting on the shelf. Its not the same tank from 2016, in terms of the new equiptment added and capabilities added, not just in terms of making the south korean and European components in a localized equivalent but action upgrades. They haven't just been sitting still.

"Yeni Altay" is very modern tank. very much comparable to the latest Leopard 2s, K2 Panther variants.

Really the only tanks its arguably "behind" are tanks that aren't in production and just prototypes like the KF51 or the AbramsX.

The two milestones for this year should hopefully be the serial production with the Korean powerpack and the delivery of the first prototype with the BMC powerpack integrated for field testing. Should take about 2 years for testing and that will be ready for production if everything goes well.

The production should start with the South Korean engine in 6-8 months, around August 2025 of this year. The BMC powerplant in 2027/2028.

 

[Anatolian]

The tank has been getting upgrades from Aselsan and Rocketsan, it hasn't been sitting on the shelf. Its not the same tank from 2016, in terms of the new equiptment added and capabilities added, not just in terms of making the south korean and European components in a localized equivalent but action upgrades. They haven't just been sitting still.

"Yeni Altay" is very modern tank. very much comparable to the latest Leopard 2s, K2 Panther variants.

Really the only tanks its arguably "behind" are tanks that aren't in production and just prototypes like the KF51 or the AbramsX.

The two milestones for this year should hopefully be the serial production with the Korean powerpack and the delivery of the first prototype with the BMC powerpack integrated for field testing. Should take about 2 years for testing and that will be ready for production if everything goes well.

The production should start with the South Korean engine in 6-8 months, around August 2025 of this year. The BMC powerplant in 2027/2028.

The tank is still largely the same since for close to a decade, whatever touchups there was is not enough to really be worth mentioning. There is no added capabilities or features that would suggest there was enough significant improvement made worth mentioning. BMC like the corrupt ineffecient nepo company that it is, has basically contributed nothing. Within that time frame we could have already build the next Altay variant with unmanned turrets or added firepower. A product usually evolves over time based on feedback and newly available technology. "Yeni Altay" is just a nice propaganda name, and concencus for the most part agree with me on this.

We are basically forced into making a tank that was cutting edge a decade ago, and whilst its still extremely capable and more then enough to the threats we might face, having that technological edge is imperitive to have. Usually when something enters service it should be viable for decades to come, but by 2016 the German KF51 was also announced and shown.

I am not frustrated with the tank itself, its still top tier and very good by all metrics, but moreso around what little has been done with it considering the nearly decade of waiting for engine. The best we got was hilariously a mock-up Altay turret bolted unto a Leopard2A4 chassis.

 

[hyperman]

The tank is still largely the same since for close to a decade, whatever touchups there was is not enough to really be worth mentioning. There is no added capabilities or features that would suggest there was enough significant improvement made worth mentioning. BMC like the corrupt ineffecient nepo company that it is, has basically contributed nothing. Within that time frame we could have already build the next Altay variant with unmanned turrets or added firepower. A product usually evolves over time based on feedback and newly available technology. "Yeni Altay" is just a nice propaganda name, and concencus for the most part agree with me on this.

We are basically forced into making a tank that was cutting edge a decade ago, and whilst its still extremely capable and more then enough to the threats we might face, having that technological edge is imperitive to have. Usually when something enters service it should be viable for decades to come, but by 2016 the German KF51 was also announced and shown.

I am not frustrated with the tank itself, its still top tier and very good by all metrics, but moreso around what little has been done with it considering the nearly decade of waiting for engine. The best we got was hilariously a mock-up Altay turret bolted unto a Leopard2A4 chassis.

Ok, what features does this tank not have compared to its contemporaries(Leopard 2s, K2 Black Panthers, Abrams, Leclercs, Merkhava etc)? Lets talk specifics.

 

[hyperman]

but moreso around what little has been done with it considering the nearly decade of waiting for engine.

Maybe you should do better research then on the subcomponents added. APS has been added and several other things from Aselsan, Rocketsan etc etc.

 

[hyperman]

Within that time frame we could have already build the next Altay variant with unmanned turrets or added firepower.

The unmanned turret requires a significant redesign, the added firepower requires a new gun. MKE is the one that develops guns, not Otokor or BMC. MKE license produced the South Korean gun, it hasn't even gone into serial production and you want them to dump that for a new gun? thats a complete waste and not how projects are managed.

You need it to go into production before you go and create new followup designs. Otherwise you will end up in a situation like the Arjun Tank from India, where specs and requirements change every few years, and the tank forever remains a prototype.

This is not how good project management works, its better to have a slightly less capable tank in mass production, rather than being stuck with prototypes that are bleeding edge.

 

[Anatolian]

Ok, what features does this tank not have compared to its contemporaries(Leopard 2s, K2 Black Panthers, Abrams, Leclercs, Merkhava etc)? Lets talk specifics.

For one the tank is heavy, sitting at around 65tons. This usually only happens when older platforms get upgrades that increasinly adds weight. The fact the Altay is already that heavy from the start means there will be little room for future improvements. The AbramsX and KF-51 are 5-6 tons lighter. It also still lacks an autoloader, which is a trend most modern tanks are increasinly adopting. The Altay was suppose to get an unmanned version in later variants, seems something that could have been achieved in nearly a decade of sitting idly. Its getting increasingly more likely that not only will there be a bigger barrel, but it might be as big as 130mm if articles are anything to go by, nevermind the 140mm from recent news.

 

[Anatolian]

The unmanned turret requires a significant redesign, the added firepower requires a new gun. MKE is the one that develops guns, not Otokor or BMC. MKE license produced the South Korean gun, it hasn't even gone into serial production and you want them to dump that for a new gun? thats a complete waste and not how projects are managed.

You need it to go into production before you go and create new followup designs. Otherwise you will end up in a situation like the Arjun Tank from India, where specs and requirements change every few years, and the tank forever remains a prototype.

This is not how good project management works, its better to have a slightly less capable tank in mass production, rather than being stuck with prototypes that are bleeding edge.

Exactly my point. Even though Otokar was passed over the contract, even they atleast made attempts to make different versions and variants of the tank such as with the Altay AHT. They could have made time for redesinging and improving the platform. Maybe even a more domestic barrel instead of a licensed Korean one.

This is not comparable to Arjun, Altay was a full fledged finished product. But if we are forced to wait nearly a decade to actually wield the damn think then might aswell not sit idly. Again, Altay is still a very good tank, but there are always step that could have been taking to improve it. The requirement of the army never changed, unlike with India.

 

[hyperman]

For one the tank is heavy, sitting at around 65tons. This usually only happens when older platforms get upgrades that increasinly adds weight. The fact the Altay is already that heavy from the start means there will be little room for future improvements. The AbramsX and KF-51 are 5-6 tons lighter. It also still lacks an autoloader, which is a trend most modern tanks are increasinly adopting. The Altay was suppose to get an unmanned version in later variants, seems something that could have been achieved in nearly a decade of sitting idly. Its getting increasingly more likely that not only will there be a bigger barrel, but it might be as big as 130mm if articles are anything to go by, nevermind the 140mm from recent news.

Brother, you are comparing different generation of tanks. You cannot compare the Altay to prototypes of next generation tanks that haven't gone into production yet.

If you must compare, you need to compare to Leopard 2A7/8, K2 Black Panther Block 3/4s, M1A2 SEPv3 and Leclerc XLR, Merkhava Mark 4 etc.

 

[hyperman]

which is a trend most modern tanks are increasinly adopting.

Which current in production Western Tank has an autoloader and unmanned turret?

 

[hyperman]

The Altay was suppose to get an unmanned version in later variants, seems something that could have been achieved in nearly a decade of sitting idly.

Not until the first batch is in production. Right now the priority is localizing South Korean parts imported elements and having mass production as soon as possible. once production and localization of supply chain is solved, then other matters are pursued.

 

[Anatolian]

Brother, you are comparing different generation of tanks. You cannot compare the Altay to prototypes of next generation tanks that haven't gone into production yet.

If you must compare, you need to compare to Leopard 2A7/8, K2 Black Panther Block 3/4s, M1A2 SEPv3 and Leclerc XLR, Merkhava Mark 4 etc.

Thats because my criticism lies not with the tank itself, but with the lack of any progress and the sheer shitshow that is BMC. If the original schedule was maintained we would have already gotten many of these improvements. Just because a product is not adopted yet doesnt mean it cannot be developed further. Literally most of our land vehicle products have been improved without it ever being adopted by the Turkish armed forces. Pars and Arma have several improved variants and versions, and thanks to that Turkey will be able to get the best version of that platform.

FNSS Pars

Where it started:

Where it is now

 

[hyperman]

Lol, you could say the same with the Altay.

Where it was before



Where it was in 2019



Where it is now.