Turkish UAV/UCAV Projects

[hodor]

Why not against the SU-57 ?
The SU-57's radar signature isn't very low


Greece buys 20 F-35
on the other hand Turkish Air Force can use 20 KAAN + 20 KIZILELMA-C networked environment to deliver full data-to-decision capability ( manned - unmanned team ) to match with 20 F-35s at the same time

With AI supported 80 GOKBORA ramjet powered long range air to air missiles are fired from 20 KIZILELMA-C at the enemy Fighter Jets and communicate with each other to decide who will attack which enemy

Greek F-35 Pilots will be shocked when they see 20 KAAN + 20 KIZILELMA-C in front of them .... They will fight against robotic Systems
View attachment 138214

KIZILELMA-C
-- More Stealth Design and composite material for very low RCS
-- RAM ( Radar Absorber Material )
-- Internal Weapon Bays for stealth Flight capability
-- 2 x TF-10.000 Turbofan Engines with afterburner for supersonic speed
-- AESA Radar + IRST + EOTS


Estimated head to head Engagement
F-35 = 37km
KAAN = 34km
View attachment 138222

Estimated head to head Engagement
F-35 = 43km
KIZILELMA-C ( bLOCK-2 ) = 24km

View attachment 138223

even if not one on one against the F-35
but when KIZILELMA-C teaming up with KAAN , then it will be very useful against the F-35s in future air combat concept

Have the date and engine details of Kızılelma-C been announced?

 

[MMM-E]

Have the date and engine details of Kızılelma-C been announced?

No date has been announced. probably after 2030

 

[Sinan]

Why not against the SU-57 ?
The SU-57's radar signature isn't very low

Generally, people don't count SU-57 as 5th gen in the comparison. Only 20 produced and not exported. It's stealth features are not known very well but estimated not to be good. If we are talking about 5th Gen we need to do it with F-35.

Estimated head to head Engagement
F-35 = 37km
KAAN = 34km

Estimated head to head Engagement
F-35 = 43km
KIZILELMA-C ( bLOCK-2 ) = 24km

even if not one on one against the F-35
but when KIZILELMA-C teaming up with KAAN , then it will be very useful against the F-35s in future air combat concept

There is a problem with this research paper.
They made a comparison between KAAN's radar and F-35's radar.


Than used those values on Kızılelma. However we know that Kızılelma will not be using KAAN's radar, as it won't fit. Nor it can be powered with a 6000lbf engine where KAAN generates 2x35000 =70000 lbf.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/376682089_TF-23_KAAN_TURKISH_5th_Gen_Fighter_Jet

 

[MMM-E]

Generally, people don't count SU-57 as 5th gen in the comparison. Only 20 produced and not exported. It's stealth features are not known very well but estimated not to be good. If we are talking about 5th Gen we need to do it with F-35.

SU-57 is a 5th gen Fighter Jet .... but we can say that the SU-57's radar signature isn't very low to compare with the F-35

and Russia is always a potential threat to Turkiye and SU-57 an advanced dangerous Fighter Jet

Than used those values on Kızılelma. However we know that Kızılelma will not be using KAAN's radar, as it won't fit. Nor it can be powered with a 6000lbf engine where KAAN generates 2x35000 =70000 lbf.

They are talking about KIZILELMA Block-2 with 2 x 10.000 lbf turbofan engines

btw KIZILELMA will escort KAAN .... that means KAAN will use its own AESA Radar to guide 185+ km GOKBORA air to air missiles which will be carried by KIZILELMA unmanned Fighter Jets

even without Radar still KIZILELMA will have BVR combat capability via Aselsan T-LINK data link for network centric warfare
Turkiye's advantage is that unmanned Fighter Jets such as KIZILELMA and ANKA-4 will escort the KAAN and participate in the BVR combat

20 Greek F-35 vs 20 Turkish KAAN + 20 KIZILELMA or ANKA-4
And while Greece is buying them, Turkiye will produce them itself. We can make up for our losses.

 

[Sinan]

SU-57 is a 5th gen Fighter Jet .... but we can say that the SU-57's radar signature isn't very low to compare with the F-35

and Russia is always a potential threat to Turkiye and SU-57 an advanced dangerous Fighter Jet

SU-57s radar signature is estimated 0,3-0,5 m2
F-35s radar signiture is estimated at 0,001 m2

Like there is no arguing on this. If you still think otherwise, just say "agree to disagree".

They are talking about KIZILELMA Block-2 with 2 x 10.000 lbf turbofan engines

10.000 lbf with afterburners. You don't design your alternator, for afterburner use. You know that you can use afterburners for a very limited time. In a F-16 jet full use of afterburner depletes your fuel in 15 minutes.

btw KIZILELMA will escort KAAN .... that means KAAN will use its own AESA Radar to guide 185+ km GOKBORA air to air missiles which will be carried by KIZILELMA unmanned Fighter Jets

even without Radar still KIZILELMA will have BVR combat capability via Aselsan T-LINK data link for network centric warfare
Turkiye's advantage is that unmanned Fighter Jets such as KIZILELMA and ANKA-4 will escort the KAAN and participate in the BVR combat

20 Greek F-35 vs 20 Turkish KAAN + 20 KIZILELMA or ANKA-4
And while Greece is buying them, Turkiye will produce them itself. We can make up for our losses.

What i'm trying to say one on one it got no chance against an F-35.

If begin to pitch in our other assets. Yeah, if you pitch in other stuff only than it has potential to bring down an F-35. Use them in front of KAAN, make them soak enemy missiles and if get the chance down a F-35, it would be a great asset.

 

[MMM-E]

SU-57s radar signature is estimated 0,3-0,5 m2
F-35s radar signiture is estimated at 0,001 m2

Like there is no arguing on this. If you still think otherwise, just say "agree to disagree".

SU-57 is nothing to compare with the F-35 in stealth capabilities
I agree with you

10.000 lbf with afterburners. You don't design your alternator, for afterburner use. You know that you can use afterburners for a very limited time. In a F-16 jet full use of afterburner depletes your fuel in 15 minutes.

Dogfight no longer has a place in today's conflicts
and No need afterburner using for BVR combat

What i'm trying to say one on one it got no chance against an F-35.

KIZILELMA only has a chance if İt has the upper hand in numbers
( 1 F-35 vs 7 KIZILELMA )

We can produce at least 7 KIZILELMA in price of 1 F-35 ... even maybe more

If begin to pitch in our other assets. Yeah, if you pitch in other stuff only than it has potential to bring down an F-35. Use them in front of KAAN, make them soak enemy missiles and if get the chance down a F-35, it would be a great asset.

Turkish Air Force is preparing for future air combat manned-unmanned teaming (MUM-T) to enhance mission effectiveness

Even Israel is not currently planning or preparing for this.

 

[RajaBaja]

Everyone is missing an important detail: maneuverability is not only crucial for dogfights, but also for evading missiles. With high maneuverability supported by artificial intelligence, it will be able to dodge both air-to-air and air defense missiles.

The new model is what's called a 3S in aviation circles, Speed, Stealth and Storage. Your speed needs to be more, your stealth needs to be optimized and your storage, space for weapons, needs to be decent for missions.

The current 5th gen and 6th gen platforms are sensor rich, its already determined that platforms will engage BVR. For incoming missiles, you now have Chaffs, Flares, Soft Diversion, Hard Diversion and Directed Energy systems.

Recent Pak-India and to some degree, Israel-Iran wars were fought with BVR, both ATA and ATG weapons plus some strategic missiles. Iran didn't have a comparable air force at all btw.

 

[Sinan]

KIZILELMA only has a chance if İt has the upper hand in numbers
( 1 F-35 vs 7 KIZILELMA )

We can produce at least 7 KIZILELMA in price of 1 F-35 ... even maybe more

Let's look at that scenerio.

F-35, sees 7 Kızılelmas, Kızılelmas can't see it. F-35 fires 4 BVR missies, turns back, hits afterburners, goes back to base.

You can't say remaining 3 Kızılelmas can shoot it down because they will be only alerted when the missiles hit them or just before they hit and at that point Kızılelma's still don't know the location of the F-35

 

[RajaBaja]

Let's look at that scenerio.

F-35, sees 7 Kızılelmas, Kızılelmas can't see it. F-35 fires 4 BVR missies, turns back, hits afterburners, goes back to base.

You can't say remaining 3 Kızılelmas can shoot it down because they will be only alerted when the missiles hit them or just before they hit and at that point Kızılelma's still don't know the location of the F-35

Sure, the F-35 has a golf ball sized RCS and its virtually undetectable. But the second it opens its weapons bay, it's location is given. This will be a BVR location as I doubt someone will risk over $ 100 million F-35 to come for a dog fight. If Kizilelma has IR sensors, it can lock the F-35!

Additionally, missiles fired will be detected along with coordinates. Now for protection, F-35 needs to retreat at this time. Otherwise any IR homing missile will try track it.

Additionally, if you have an AESA based AWACS standing by with a VLF mode on, it can track the F-35, and pass coordinates to another AESA based missile, like the Meteor, AIM-260, etc. This doesn't guarantee a kill, but it doesn't guarantee full impunity either.

 

[Sinan]

Sure, the F-35 has a golf ball sized RCS and its virtually undetectable. But the second it opens its weapons bay, it's location is given. This will be a BVR location as I doubt someone will risk over $ 100 million F-35 to come for a dog fight. If Kizilelma has IR sensors, it can lock the F-35!

Additionally, missiles fired will be detected along with coordinates. Now for protection, F-35 needs to retreat at this time. Otherwise any IR homing missile will try track it.

Additionally, if you have an AESA based AWACS standing by with a VLF mode on, it can track the F-35, and pass coordinates to another AESA based missile, like the Meteor, AIM-260, etc. This doesn't guarantee a kill, but it doesn't guarantee full impunity either.

1-) True, i forgot about weapons bay opening. It will be detected.
2-) IR homing missiles are useless against F-35, DIRCM
3-) We are talking about Kızılelma vs F35, no additional assets.

 

[Charles_Martel]

on the other hand Turkish Air Force can use 20 KAAN + 20 KIZILELMA-C

KAAN is yearS from being operationnal.

 

[RajaBaja]

1-) True, i forgot about weapons bay opening. It will be detected.
2-) IR homing missiles are useless against F-35, DIRCM
3-) We are talking about Kızılelma vs F35, no additional assets.

Well, then in theory, when Kizilelma is sent for combat, why won't it have a Turkish DIRCM like system too? Through which, it can also evade F-35's missile? While, when the weapon's bay open and it locks the F-35 and fires on it, it will put the F-35 for a defensive run also?

Remember, Kizilelma does have a radar, it's not useless in this scenario. Ground radars in VLF can be sending it F-35's location throughout......

 

[Sinan]

Well, then in theory, when Kizilelma is sent for combat, why won't it have a Turkish DIRCM like system too? Through which, it can also evade F-35's missile? While, when the weapon's bay open and it locks the F-35 and fires on it, it will put the F-35 for a defensive run also?

Remember, Kizilelma does have a radar, it's not useless in this scenario. Ground radars in VLF can be sending it F-35's location throughout......

- BVR missiles are not IR seeking.
- Forget about Ground Radars, Awacs, KAAN's radars, we are talking about Kızılelma VS F-35, exclusively.

So, when weapons bay of the F-35 opens it's RCS will be increased considerably (going up like 1000 times) However, there is a trick here. Weapon's bay of F-35 doesn't open like B-52's weapons bay. It tooks like 1-2 seconds to deploy the missile and close.

All Kızılelma can potantially see is a blib on radar and if it's on the right elevation, angle and frequency. Forget a lock on...

Still we are talking on theories, this needs to be tested in a battle situation but odds are highly at F-35s side.

I think, the best way to down a F-35 is to put KAAN against it, Ultimately, we aim to have better RCS than F-35, better radar and longer range BVR missiles.

 

[RajaBaja]

- BVR missiles are not IR seeking.
- Forget about Ground Radars, Awacs, KAAN's radars, we are talking about Kızılelma VS F-35, exclusively.

So, when weapons bay of the F-35 opens it's RCS will be increased considerably (going up like 1000 times) However, there is a trick here. Weapon's bay of F-35 doesn't open like B-52's weapons bay. It tooks like 1-2 seconds to deploy the missile and close.

All Kızılelma can potantially see is a blib on radar and if it's on the right elevation, angle and frequency. Forget a lock on...

Still we are talking on theories, this needs to be tested in a battle situation but odds are highly at F-35s side.

I think, the best way to down a F-35 is to put KAAN against it, Ultimately, we aim to have better RCS than F-35, better radar and longer range BVR missiles.

Turkey's BVR missile programs have dual seeker that includes IR. That's why I added it in my post. Pakistan's FAAZ BVR program that it decided to merge with Turkey, was also a twin seeker.

Weapons bay when opens for even 2 seconds, radar waves that travel on the speed of light, have already hit it a few times. It's painted.

Serbia show down an F-117, a perfectly stealth geometry shape, better than F-35 for stealth performance in that time. It's engine bays were opened for just 2 seconds. Secondly, it was taken down by AD radar switch one for a few seconds only just to paint it and fire the missile. That was in the 90's, missile tech is much advanced now.

 

[Sinan]

Turkey's BVR missile programs have dual seeker that includes IR. That's why I added it in my post. Pakistan's FAAZ BVR program that it decided to merge with Turkey, was also a twin seeker.

Weapons bay when opens for even 2 seconds, radar waves that travel on the speed of light, have already hit it a few times. It's painted.

Serbia show down an F-117, a perfectly stealth geometry shape, better than F-35 for stealth performance in that time. It's engine bays were opened for just 2 seconds. Secondly, it was taken down by AD radar switch one for a few seconds only just to paint it and fire the missile. That was in the 90's, missile tech is much advanced now.

Bro, you are comparing apples with oranges.

- We are talking about ranges over 100kms, you need an active-radar seek missile for that. And there is also DIRCM. Forget about IR seeking missiles.

- F-117 case is very very very different from the scenerio that we are talking about. If you want me to break it down, i will. But absolutely nothing similar when you compare it to our scenerio.